Francois Labreque <fla### [at] videotronca> wrote:
> Origin of INDEX
> Latin indic-, index, from indicare to indicate
> First Known Use: 1561

  The first known use of the word doesn't necessarily mean it's the first
known use of an index in a book.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 29/09/2011 02:55 PM, Warp wrote:
> Francois Labreque<fla### [at] videotronca>  wrote:
>> Origin of INDEX
>> Latin indic-, index, from indicare to indicate
>> First Known Use: 1561
>
>    The first known use of the word doesn't necessarily mean it's the first
> known use of an index in a book.

True - but I think we can safely say that books had indicies /long/ 
before working computers even existed, which was my original assertion.

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On 29/09/2011 12:04 PM, Invisible wrote:
.
>
> The first "computer" was arguably the design by Babbage, and the first
> "algorithm" was allegedly written by Ada Lovelace, who died almost
> exactly 1 century before Turing.
>

I would argue that algorithms go further back than that. Consider 
control mechanisms. If you want an engine to run at a constant speed 
with a variable load. You would use an algorithm like this.

Test the speed of the motor.
If the speed is lower than the target speed then increase the power.
If the speed is greater than the target speed then decrease the power.
If the speed is within limits then neither increase nor decrease the power.


solution to the algorithm. Roman engineers maintained water levels for 
their aqueduct system by means of floating valves that opened and closed 
at appropriate levels. Someone had to create an algorithm no matter how 
simple.

> Now if we could establish when the first book with an index was created...

For library catalogues see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_catalog#History

Long, long ago.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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> Francois Labreque<fla### [at] videotronca>  wrote:
>> Origin of INDEX
>> Latin indic-, index, from indicare to indicate
>> First Known Use: 1561
>
>    The first known use of the word doesn't necessarily mean it's the first
> known use of an index in a book.
>

The first use of the word set a key date.
The first book with an index, even if named diferently, was made 
strictly before that year.

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> Francois Labreque<fla### [at] videotronca>  wrote:
>> Origin of INDEX
>> Latin indic-, index, from indicare to indicate
>> First Known Use: 1561
>
>    The first known use of the word doesn't necessarily mean it's the first
> known use of an index in a book.
>

Agreed.

but if the first documented use the word index to was in 1561, we can 
safely assume that the first use of the index itself predates it.  I was 
only establishing the upper bound.

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/*   gmail.com     */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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On 9/29/2011 11:11 AM, Stephen wrote:

> solution to the algorithm. Roman engineers maintained water levels for
> their aqueduct system by means of floating valves that opened and closed
> at appropriate levels. Someone had to create an algorithm no matter how
> simple.
>
Depending on your definition of "computer", there is evidence of a one 
of a kind "Roman" device that was capable of predicting eclipses, and 
timing the correct date to start the Olympic games, among other 
features. In other words, an electronic calender. But, at that time, 
such things where nearly impossible to replicate, so when the ship it 
was one sank... Arguably, its gearing system had to have some sort of 
"algorithm".

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

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>> The first "computer" was arguably the design by Babbage, and the first
>> "algorithm" was allegedly written by Ada Lovelace, who died almost
>> exactly 1 century before Turing.
>
> I would argue that algorithms go further back than that.

At this point, it becomes necessary to define what you mean by "algorithm".

Is long division an "algorithm"? Because the ancient Babylonians 
apparently had that waaay back in 3100 BC. That's some FIVE MILLENNIA ago.

What I actually /said/ was that computers (by which I mean fully 
autonomous computational devices) had O(log N) lookup way later than 
books (by which I mean large textual documents stored as visible marks 
on some sort of medium) had it. Given how ancient writing is and how 
comparatively new functioning computers are, I think that's a safe 
assertion.

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On 30/09/2011 03:14 AM, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> Depending on your definition of "computer"

There is that too.

Turing-completeness is a reasonable definition, until you consider that 
a sheet of paper and a pen is Turing-complete given a suitable human to 
operate it. So perhaps the significant thing is the sophistication of 
computations that the device can perform without human aid.

> there is evidence of a one
> of a kind "Roman" device that was capable of predicting eclipses, and
> timing the correct date to start the Olympic games, among other
> features.

Last I heard, nobody had decided exactly what that device was for. It 
seems opinions have changed...

> In other words, an electronic calender.

I think you mean /automated/ calendar. It's only /electronic/ if it 
operates by moving electrons around. :-P

> But, at that time,
> such things where nearly impossible to replicate, so when the ship it
> was one sank...

We're talking about something from a /long/ time ago. The fact that no 
others have been found yet doesn't mean none existed.

> Arguably, its gearing system had to have some sort of "algorithm".

By that description, the way that trees use the laws of physics to move 
exactly the right amount of water from their roots to their leaves could 
be considered an "algorithm". Which would mean that algorithms predate 
mankind by several billion years...

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On 30/09/2011 9:08 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>> The first "computer" was arguably the design by Babbage, and the first
>>> "algorithm" was allegedly written by Ada Lovelace, who died almost
>>> exactly 1 century before Turing.
>>
>> I would argue that algorithms go further back than that.
>
> At this point, it becomes necessary to define what you mean by "algorithm".
>
> Is long division an "algorithm"? Because the ancient Babylonians
> apparently had that waaay back in 3100 BC. That's some FIVE MILLENNIA ago.
>

I would define an algorithm the same way the Wiki does.
An algorithm is an effective method expressed as a finite list of 
well-defined instructions for calculating a function.
So I would say that the steps for doing long division are an algorithm.

> What I actually /said/ was that computers (by which I mean fully
> autonomous computational devices)

What do you mean by "fully autonomous computational devices"?

had O(log N) lookup way later than

I am not familiar with the Big O notation so I misread your sentence. As 
usual I tried to make some sort of sense out of what could have been 
typos and or bad grammar and spelling.
So in English, if possible, what do you mean?

> books (by which I mean large textual documents stored as visible marks
> on some sort of medium) had it.

That is just juvenile and pompous. Only funny to a teenager.

> Given how ancient writing is and how
> comparatively new functioning computers are, I think that's a safe
> assertion.


using ones and zeros.
I have worked on computers that were solely pneumatic. They could add, 
subtract multiply and divide. Standard components could extract square 
roots integrate and average.


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 30/09/2011 9:18 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Which would mean that algorithms predate mankind by several billion
> years...

Let's not go down that road again :-P

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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