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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Only two weeks until the End of the World
Date: 7 May 2011 19:47:40
Message: <4dc5da1c@news.povray.org>
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On Sat, 07 May 2011 16:43:05 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 5/7/2011 14:17, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Passport is expired, renewal is something like $85. SS card
>> replacement is free. :)
>
> That's a fair reason. Personally, I feel better having a passport. ;-)
Oh, I do as well. Once I've secured something our passports are getting
renewed.
I found I needed to get my SS card replaced back in September (needed it
for a drivers' license renewal), but the DMV could take a W2 form. I
needed my license to get the SS card replaced, and the passport was
expired, so I was potentially in some trouble for letting too much go for
too long.
Jim
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Only two weeks until the End of the World
Date: 7 May 2011 19:48:58
Message: <4dc5da6a@news.povray.org>
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On Sat, 07 May 2011 16:42:14 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> We
> don't even require IDs for voting.
That's true in some states, but not in Utah. In Utah they require an ID,
and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that
constitutes a poll tax or not.
Jim
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On 5/7/2011 16:48, Jim Henderson wrote:
> That's true in some states, but not in Utah. In Utah they require an ID,
> and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that
> constitutes a poll tax or not.
Oh, I forgot to add, you can almost always get a government ID for free, or
the government would have a hard time requiring you to have an ID to get
various services. E.g., most anywhere you get a driver's license, you can go
to get a non-driver ID using the same evidence you use to prove your ID.
So, in other words, the ID isn't to ID you. It's to prove you're allowed to
do whatever the ID is allowing you to do, here. You never actually have to
prove you are who you say you are, AFAIK. You only have to prove you have a
right to get what you're after, and sometimes that involves providing some
sort of ID that can be checked. If the police stop you just walking down the
road, you don't have to prove who you are, even if they decide to arrest you
for something. (The whole "right to not incriminate yourself" is about as
well supported as the "right to free speech" bit here, unlike many other of
the supposedly involatile rights.)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Coding without comments is like
driving without turn signals."
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From: Stephen
Subject: Re: Only two weeks until the End of the World
Date: 7 May 2011 21:45:45
Message: <4dc5f5c9@news.povray.org>
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On 08/05/2011 12:42 AM, Darren New wrote:
> "Social security" is basically a federal tax. It started out being
> *just* government guaranteed retirement benefits. Now, of course, the ID
> number is used for pretty much every financial identification, in spite
> of originally being guaranteed to only be used for social security.
Interesting fact about SSN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#SSNs_invalidated_by_use_in_advertising
--
Regards
Stephen
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> Patrick Elliott<sel### [at] npgcable com> wrote:
>> Possible he lost it? Lot of places take photocopies of the stuff you
>> provide, to have it on record that you actually gave a card, not just
>> filled in some numbers.
>
> It's interesting how different this is between countries.
>
> In Spain (I have lived there) every single citizens has the same type of
> official identity card. AFAIK it's mandatory to have one and I think it's
> at least in principle even mandatory to have it with you at all times at
> least if you are away from your home town. (If the police demands to see
> your identity card and you don't have it, it might cause some repercussions.)
>
> In Finland it's much more relaxed. There's no one single official identity
> card. There is an identity card, but it's not mandatory. There are many other
> forms of identity documents that are equally valid, including a driver's
> license and a passport. (In other words, even if the only form of official
> identification you own is a driver's license, it's enough. You don't need
> anything else.)
>
> I lived many years without any unexpired official identification document.
> (AFAIK this would be unthinkable in Spain.) Had to then get one for practical
> reasons (you can't open bank accounts, get credit cards, etc. without such
> an ID).
>
In Canada, we also have Social Security cards. They only have your name
and 3 x 3 digits.
Officialy, it's the only card you need and the only legal card. You need
to write that number on your tax reports, and it should be the only
place it's used.
In practice, almost nobody have the right to ask you that card, and it's
not considered acceptable to prove your identity. If fact, a prospective
employer don't realy have the right to ask for it, but it's tolerated as
an established practice.
Other than that, nobody have any right to ask you to show it.
As we have provincialy managed universal health care, and that those
cards now have a photo, it's the de facto universal identity card.
You can also use your driver license, that also have your photo.
Those are also the only ID that can legaly be asked and used as proof of
your age.
Alain
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Only two weeks until the End of the World
Date: 7 May 2011 22:56:45
Message: <4dc6066d@news.povray.org>
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On Sat, 07 May 2011 17:23:31 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 5/7/2011 16:48, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> That's true in some states, but not in Utah. In Utah they require an
>> ID, and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that
>> constitutes a poll tax or not.
>
> Oh, I forgot to add, you can almost always get a government ID for free,
> or the government would have a hard time requiring you to have an ID to
> get various services. E.g., most anywhere you get a driver's license,
> you can go to get a non-driver ID using the same evidence you use to
> prove your ID.
Oh, sure - my stepson had a state-issued ID because he hadn't done
drivers ed. But I don't think it was free, there still was a cost
involved.
> So, in other words, the ID isn't to ID you. It's to prove you're allowed
> to do whatever the ID is allowing you to do, here. You never actually
> have to prove you are who you say you are, AFAIK. You only have to prove
> you have a right to get what you're after, and sometimes that involves
> providing some sort of ID that can be checked. If the police stop you
> just walking down the road, you don't have to prove who you are, even if
> they decide to arrest you for something. (The whole "right to not
> incriminate yourself" is about as well supported as the "right to free
> speech" bit here, unlike many other of the supposedly involatile
> rights.)
That's an interesting point of view, not something I've really thought
of. Of course, in order to determine if you're allowed to do something
or not (like buy cigarettes or alcohol), having your identity verified
(ie, proving that you are who you say you are) is important. Otherwise,
fake IDs wouldn't be a problem - maybe. Not really thinking as clearly
at the moment just because of other stuff going on.
Jim
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: Only two weeks until the End of the World
Date: 8 May 2011 02:28:17
Message: <4dc63801@news.povray.org>
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On 5/7/2011 19:56, Jim Henderson wrote:
> or not (like buy cigarettes or alcohol), having your identity verified
No, that's my point. You only have to prove how old you are, not who you are.
Now, in practice, there isn't really any ID that can prove how old you are
without also saying who you are, but there's no theoretical reason there
couldn't be an ID that gives your age and your photo without your name. And
for this sort of thing, people check your ID but don't record who you are,
so it's pretty much the same thing.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Coding without comments is like
driving without turn signals."
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On 5/7/2011 18:47, Alain wrote:
> In practice, almost nobody have the right to ask you that card, and it's not
To clarify, I haven't had a social security *card* since like
1980-something. I got a passport, misplaced the "card", and never needed a
new one. One needs to give the number to the employer to have taxes taken
out of wages, but one doesn't need to show the actual card if one has proof
of citizenship in the USA.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Coding without comments is like
driving without turn signals."
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rr com> wrote:
> Of course, you need a passport to get back
> into the country if you leave(*)
That would be unconstitutional here. You can't stop a citizen from
entering the country.
(Of course if you try to enter the country with some other form of ID
than your passport, it will probably take longer than the usual 10 seconds
it takes with a passport. I don't know what it would involve, but probably
more scrutiny, perhaps even paperwork. If you don't have *any* form of ID,
it will probably take a lot longer to prove your citizenship in some other
way. However, constitutionally you are allowed to enter the country as a
matter of course, if you are a citizen. The constitution does not mention
passports as a requirement.)
--
- Warp
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On Sat, 07 May 2011 23:28:15 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 5/7/2011 19:56, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> or not (like buy cigarettes or alcohol), having your identity verified
>
> No, that's my point. You only have to prove how old you are, not who you
> are.
But one's age is one property of one's self. If your identity can't be
verified, then how does one know the information on this 'ID' is yours
and not somebody elses?
> Now, in practice, there isn't really any ID that can prove how old you
> are without also saying who you are, but there's no theoretical reason
> there couldn't be an ID that gives your age and your photo without your
> name. And for this sort of thing, people check your ID but don't record
> who you are, so it's pretty much the same thing.
I don't think it's a matter of recording it or not. To issue a state ID,
you have to prove who you are - without that proof, the ID is meaningless
and the state won't issue it.
Jim
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