On Sat, 07 May 2011 17:23:31 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 5/7/2011 16:48, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> That's true in some states, but not in Utah.  In Utah they require an
>> ID, and there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not that
>> constitutes a poll tax or not.
> 
> Oh, I forgot to add, you can almost always get a government ID for free,
> or the government would have a hard time requiring you to have an ID to
> get various services. E.g., most anywhere you get a driver's license,
> you can go to get a non-driver ID using the same evidence you use to
> prove your ID.

Oh, sure - my stepson had a state-issued ID because he hadn't done 
drivers ed.  But I don't think it was free, there still was a cost 
involved.

> So, in other words, the ID isn't to ID you. It's to prove you're allowed
> to do whatever the ID is allowing you to do, here. You never actually
> have to prove you are who you say you are, AFAIK. You only have to prove
> you have a right to get what you're after, and sometimes that involves
> providing some sort of ID that can be checked. If the police stop you
> just walking down the road, you don't have to prove who you are, even if
> they decide to arrest you for something.  (The whole "right to not
> incriminate yourself" is about as well supported as the "right to free
> speech" bit here, unlike many other of the supposedly involatile
> rights.)

That's an interesting point of view, not something I've really thought 
of.  Of course, in order to determine if you're allowed to do something 
or not (like buy cigarettes or alcohol), having your identity verified 
(ie, proving that you are who you say you are) is important.  Otherwise, 
fake IDs wouldn't be a problem - maybe.  Not really thinking as clearly 
at the moment just because of other stuff going on.

Jim

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