On 15/04/2011 2:53 PM, Invisible wrote:

>> From my memory.
>
> That's not how I remember it, but hey, OK...

Yes everyone is different.
>
>>> The possible answers include:
>>> - Play video games.
>>
>> There weren't any then. Text games or wireline graphics.
>
> I certainly remember knowing several people who owned a C64 or a ZX
> Spectrum or something similar exclusively so they could play games on it.
>

Different peer groups then.


>>
>> Most people used pen and paper. Most people could not type and the ones
>> that could probable learned how to at commercial lessons or typing
>> classes.
>
> Again, I certainly remember us owning a typewriter. Me and my sister
> used to type stuff on it just for entertainment. Having a word processor
> made life so much easier. And then my parents got a dot matrix printer
> to go with it...
>
> As late as 1995, one of the people at school paid hundreds of pounds for
> an "electronic type writer" that was basically a computer keyboard, dot
> matrix printer and a tiny LCD all in one unit. So, like a real
> typewriter, but computerised. (I don't think you could even turn it off
> without losing your work, mind you...)
>

My father had one of them. IIRC it was a Starwriter, a typewriter style 
keyboard, a 4 or 6 line LCD display and a printer all in the cace of a 
portable typewriter.


> Yeah, I'm having trouble thinking of any large volume of information
> that you'd actually bother keeping that would be too large to hold on
> paper... The contents of your filofax maybe.
>

Since all official communication was by paper it built up. Some people 
keep every thing.

>> You probably don't realise how much things have changed just in my
>> lifetime.
>
> I know how much they changed in *my* lifetime, but I'm not quite as old.
> ;-)
>
Not quite, indeed. :-D

>> Cars were for the rich, children could play in the street without fear
>> of getting knocked down. But collecting number plates (I don't mean
>> ripping them off cars) had just gone out of fashion but adults thought
>> that it was a suitable hobby. Ballpoint pens were banned in schools, we
>> used dip pens. (That changed when I went to high school). The first
>> check book I got cost 1/2d per check for stamp duty. People used to go
>> out to the airport to see planes taking off and landing for
>> entertainment. Foreign holidays were unheard of for most people.
>
> As I say, I'm younger.

And live in a new town.
>
> When I was a kid, almost everyone had a TV, most people had a knackered
> old car that they spent months per year fixing,

Sometimes when out for a drive.

> and some but not all
> families owned an 8-bit home computer of some sort. I can distinctly
> remember being utterly addicted to Space Invaders, so much so that I
> didn't want to leave my friend's room when mum said it was time to go home.
>

I forgot, you live in the affluent south. (As I do now.)

> My parents bought a ZX Spectrum so they could run "educational" type
> games on it for me and my sister. Later my dad had a Commodore Plus4.
> That died spectacularly; left on his bed, the air vents apparently got
> blocked, and I came back to find that the tape hadn't finished loading.
> Instead, the screen was now pink with diagonal white stripes and random
> flashing glyphs. It never worked again, so we got a C64. Pitty; the
> Plus4 was better.
>

I had rubber bands to play with and marbles. ;-)

> I haven't seen that one yet. Then again, I've only really got experience
> of one brand - Acer.
>

My old Acer laptop came with a manual on the HDD.

> Unless you count that IBM thing I was allowed to use, way back in
> 1990-something. You know, when only business executives, accountants and
> professional programmers could such things. Cyan and magenta screen that
> rippled when you touched it. VGA graphics FTW! :-D
>

A tad more people than than that but I worked in industry then so there 
was more need for things like spreadsheets etc.

>> Yes, plug it in and clean with a damp cloth but not at the same time.
>
> During boiling, the outside of the kettle may become hot. This does not
> indicate a fault condition.
>

LOL

>>> What, you don't know any gamers? ;-)
>>
>> Only you. My brother-in-law plays some sort of fantasy football game but
>> that is a solo thing, I think. I don't play games myself I'm not any
>> good at them.
>
> Solo games are still games. ;-)
>

I was thinking of people like your clan.



-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 15/04/2011 07:42 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 4/15/2011 10:16, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> So I paid money for some software, but I need to pay more money to
>> find out how to actually use it? WTF?
>
> No. You have to pay money to learn how to fix it. "I paid all this money
> for my car, and when it breaks down I have to pay a mechanic to repair
> it too?"

OK. So if I wanted to do something crazy like make it so that when a 
user drag-and-drops a file onto my program's icon, it loads up Excel, my 
program fires a bunch of data to it, and Excel generates a graph and 
pastes it into the email I'm writing, *that* I would expect to have to 
pay money for. Trying to figure out what the options in the settings 
dialog do? *That* I would expect to be part of the product documentation.

> Now you're changing what you're talking about again. What word
> configuration are you curious about.

Right now I don't need to look anything up. My point is that every time 
I've needed to find something out, I haven't been able to.

>> (and MS products are insanely expensive)
>
> Generally not. Have you looked at the price of something like autocad or
> maya?

That's like saying "housing isn't overpriced at all; have you seen the 
price of buying Buckingham Palace?!"

>> But do you? Do you *really*? You still have to figure this crap out,
>> remember? ;-)
>
> Well, I just spent an hour putting my own 2-color trivial model in in
> place of the 1-color trivial model in the demo, and confirmed that it
> works in every configuration *except* the one I actually need to use.

WIN!

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 4/16/2011 3:18, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> OK. So if I wanted to do something crazy like make it so that when a user
> drag-and-drops a file onto my program's icon, it loads up Excel, my program
> fires a bunch of data to it, and Excel generates a graph and pastes it into
> the email I'm writing, *that* I would expect to have to pay money for.

Except you don't.

> Trying to figure out what the options in the settings dialog do? *That* I
> would expect to be part of the product documentation.

What option are you talking about that isn't sufficiently documented?

>> Now you're changing what you're talking about again. What word
>> configuration are you curious about.
>
> Right now I don't need to look anything up. My point is that every time I've
> needed to find something out, I haven't been able to.

I don't mean to offend, but you've demonstrated many times here that you 
aren't really very good at looking things up. Maybe it's not the product's 
fault? (Maybe it is, sure, but without a specific example, I'm actually 
going to err on the side of my own experience.)

> That's like saying "housing isn't overpriced at all; have you seen the price
> of buying Buckingham Palace?!"

"Overpriced" and "insanely expensive" are different things. You just seem to 
never have gotten used to the fact that commercial software costs money. 
$200 for a commercial program isn't expensive.  $20,000 is expensive.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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>> Right now I don't need to look anything up. My point is that every
>> time I've
>> needed to find something out, I haven't been able to.
>
> I don't mean to offend, but you've demonstrated many times here that you
> aren't really very good at looking things up. Maybe it's not the
> product's fault? (Maybe it is, sure, but without a specific example, I'm
> actually going to err on the side of my own experience.)

Obviously I don't happen to have a specific item to hand for the 
purposes of this argument. But there's been plenty of times when I've 
wondered "where the hell is the button for X?" or "what does this option 
mean?"

As I say, I especially like how in Windows 2000 (I think) they added a 
new UI element: a little "?" button next to the close button. The idea 
being that you click this button, and then click anything in the window, 
and it brings up a description for the thing you just clicked. 
Apparently the description for every such thing is "no help found". 
Gotta love that, eh?

>> That's like saying "housing isn't overpriced at all; have you seen the
>> price
>> of buying Buckingham Palace?!"
>
> "Overpriced" and "insanely expensive" are different things. You just
> seem to never have gotten used to the fact that commercial software
> costs money. $200 for a commercial program isn't expensive. $20,000 is
> expensive.

Meh. I remember when you couldn't *get* software without paying money 
for it! :-P

$20 for a word processor isn't expensive. $200 is.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 4/17/2011 7:50, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Obviously I don't happen to have a specific item to hand for the purposes of
> this argument. But there's been plenty of times when I've wondered "where
> the hell is the button for X?" or "what does this option mean?"

My memory is that when you ask, most people can find an answer for you in 
the docs with a tiny bit of searching.

> Apparently the
> description for every such thing is "no help found". Gotta love that, eh?

I had indeed noticed that. Note that the same UI element carries over in the 
libraries to this day, in the form of a Help URL on every widget. :-)

> $20 for a word processor isn't expensive. $200 is.

I think it depends on what the word processor does. There are free ones, 
there are inexpensive ones, and there are expensive ones. So use the free one.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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>>> From my memory.
>>
>> That's not how I remember it, but hey, OK...
>
> Yes everyone is different.

Fair enough.

>> As late as 1995, one of the people at school paid hundreds of pounds for
>> an "electronic type writer" that was basically a computer keyboard, dot
>> matrix printer and a tiny LCD all in one unit. So, like a real
>> typewriter, but computerised. (I don't think you could even turn it off
>> without losing your work, mind you...)
>
> My father had one of them. IIRC it was a Starwriter, a typewriter style
> keyboard, a 4 or 6 line LCD display and a printer all in the cace of a
> portable typewriter.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing. The one I saw was light brown. ;-)

>> When I was a kid, almost everyone had a TV, most people had a knackered
>> old car that they spent months per year fixing,
>
> Sometimes when out for a drive.

Oh hell yeah... I'll never forget the time one of the pistols LEFT THE 
ENGINE BLOCK while we were driving back to the camp site one time while 
on holiday. o_O

>> and some but not all
>> families owned an 8-bit home computer of some sort.
>
> I forgot, you live in the affluent south. (As I do now.)

Is there actually a difference?

>> My parents bought a ZX Spectrum so they could run "educational" type
>> games on it for me and my sister.
>
> I had rubber bands to play with and marbles. ;-)

I remember my sister collecting marbles. All sorts of different colours. 
Other than looking at them, we could never figure out anything 
interesting to do with 'em though.

>> I haven't seen that one yet. Then again, I've only really got experience
>> of one brand - Acer.
>
> My old Acer laptop came with a manual on the HDD.

Really? I haven't seen that on any of the ones I've bought or used.

>> Unless you count that IBM thing I was allowed to use, way back in
>> 1990-something. You know, when only business executives, accountants and
>> professional programmers could such things.
>
> A tad more people than than that but I worked in industry then so there
> was more need for things like spreadsheets etc.

I imagine most people who had a laptop actually had "the company's 
laptop", not one of their own.

>> During boiling, the outside of the kettle may become hot. This does not
>> indicate a fault condition.
>
> LOL

No kidding, the manual for our tap says that shortly after use, it may 
dribble water, and this is not a fault. (It's a swan-neck tap.)

>> Solo games are still games. ;-)
>
> I was thinking of people like your clan.

Sure. But even if you only play Freecell, that's still a "use" for a 
computer, as such...

Post a reply to this message

On 17/04/2011 17:14, Darren New wrote:
> On 4/17/2011 7:50, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Obviously I don't happen to have a specific item to hand for the
>> purposes of
>> this argument. But there's been plenty of times when I've wondered "where
>> the hell is the button for X?" or "what does this option mean?"
>
> My memory is that when you ask, most people can find an answer for you
> in the docs with a tiny bit of searching.

There was a time when searching the manual meant, you know, actually 
turning pages. I think back when MS used to *print* the manual, they 
perhaps put more effort into making it worth the paper it's printed on. 
 From what I've seen, today if you ask for help in the latest version of 
Office, it just takes you to a publicly editable wiki. Great...

>> Apparently the
>> description for every such thing is "no help found". Gotta love that, eh?
>
> I had indeed noticed that. Note that the same UI element carries over in
> the libraries to this day, in the form of a Help URL on every widget. :-)

Most dialogue boxes have a "help" button right next to "OK" and 
"cancel". Rarely does it actually /help/ you though...

>> $20 for a word processor isn't expensive. $200 is.
>
> I think it depends on what the word processor does. There are free ones,
> there are inexpensive ones, and there are expensive ones. So use the
> free one.

In reality, MS Word is /the only/ word processor that anybody ever uses. 
I tiny few people might use OpenOffice these days, but most people have 
never heard of it. To them, a word processor = MS Word.

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>> In short, almost nothing is documented. I find this extremely
>> frustrating.
>
> Now it's been years since I had to seriously look up a Windows error
> code, but it at least used to be that the MS Knowledgebase was pretty
> good about having the things I needed (usually STOP error codes).  Maybe
> that's changed since I switched to Linux; the last Windows thing I did
> was set up a 2008 server and XP clients for our mobile testing centre,
> but I don't use Windows if I don't have to (as you probably know by now).

STOP messages you can usually look up. (Almost all of them mean 
"something happened which is never supposed to happen. Go check your 
hardware and device drivers." But then, I guess that's the nature of a 
kernel failure...)

>> The Commodore 64 came with an extensive (yet surprisingly small) user
>> manual
>
> Yes, the C64, with only 64 KB of memory and a 1 Mhz (more or less)
> processor was a much simpler machine from a much simpler time.
> Similarly, the Model T Ford was a lot simpler than the hybrid Ford
> Focus.  That should really not be that surprising. ;)

By contrast, the GHC user manual expects you to already know Haskell, 
and its description of the non-standard language features you can enable 
is "go read this PDF research paper describing the theoretical 
motivation and technical underpinnings of this feature". Still, GHC 
doesn't cost money...

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On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:08:55 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> In short, almost nothing is documented. I find this extremely
>>> frustrating.
>>
>> Now it's been years since I had to seriously look up a Windows error
>> code, but it at least used to be that the MS Knowledgebase was pretty
>> good about having the things I needed (usually STOP error codes). 
>> Maybe that's changed since I switched to Linux; the last Windows thing
>> I did was set up a 2008 server and XP clients for our mobile testing
>> centre, but I don't use Windows if I don't have to (as you probably
>> know by now).
> 
> STOP messages you can usually look up. (Almost all of them mean
> "something happened which is never supposed to happen. Go check your
> hardware and device drivers." But then, I guess that's the nature of a
> kernel failure...)

Um, yes, STOP messages are a type of ABEND (ie, Abnormal End) of the 
kernel.

But those aren't the only error messages I ever had to look up, and I 
never really had a problem finding *something* about the error I was 
running into, that was my point.

>>> The Commodore 64 came with an extensive (yet surprisingly small) user
>>> manual
>>
>> Yes, the C64, with only 64 KB of memory and a 1 Mhz (more or less)
>> processor was a much simpler machine from a much simpler time.
>> Similarly, the Model T Ford was a lot simpler than the hybrid Ford
>> Focus.  That should really not be that surprising. ;)
> 
> By contrast, the GHC user manual expects you to already know Haskell,
> and its description of the non-standard language features you can enable
> is "go read this PDF research paper describing the theoretical
> motivation and technical underpinnings of this feature". Still, GHC
> doesn't cost money...

I'm not really sure what that has to do with what I was saying....

Jim

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On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:50:10 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> Meh. I remember when you couldn't *get* software without paying money
> for it! :-P
> 
> $20 for a word processor isn't expensive. $200 is.

Then you must be older than you claim, because freeware has been around 
nearly as long as computing has been.

$200 isn't very much money if you have it.  We've been over that before.

But as Darren said, if you don't want to pay $200 for it, don't - use a 
free alternative.  But don't be surprised if you discover that the free 
version doesn't have the same features as the $200 one does or can't read 
the files that people send you.

Though with openoffice/libreoffice, my experience has been good, some 
people haven't had similar experiences.

Jim

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On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:02:19 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> In reality, MS Word is /the only/ word processor that anybody ever uses.
> I tiny few people might use OpenOffice these days, but most people have
> never heard of it. To them, a word processor = MS Word.

So, where did you pull the statistics for the number of people who use 
OpenOffice?  Did you just invent that statistic, or do you have a 
citation?

Most of the people I deal with use OpenOffice and prefer it to Word.  So 
if you're just going with anecdotal evidence based on your own 
experiences, that's fine, but don't cite that as if it's fact.

Jim

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On 4/18/2011 1:02, Invisible wrote:
> There was a time when searching the manual meant, you know, actually turning
> pages. I think back when MS used to *print* the manual, they perhaps put
> more effort into making it worth the paper it's printed on. From what I've
> seen, today if you ask for help in the latest version of Office, it just
> takes you to a publicly editable wiki. Great...

Yeah. MS and everyone else seems to have been going downhill in this regard. 
Is Apple as bad, or is their documentation (for programmers) actually useful 
and all?

I think programming has turned into a social endeavor, where who you follow 
on twitter is as important as having read the manuals.

>> I think it depends on what the word processor does. There are free ones,
>> there are inexpensive ones, and there are expensive ones. So use the
>> free one.
>
> In reality, MS Word is /the only/ word processor that anybody ever uses. I
> tiny few people might use OpenOffice these days, but most people have never
> heard of it. To them, a word processor = MS Word.

So, then, obviously not too expensive.   If the only car out there cost 
$100,000, you'd find people finding alternatives.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 4/18/2011 1:08, Invisible wrote:
> But then, I guess that's the nature of a kernel failure...)

My favorite was always "floating point underflow in kernel mode" message the 
mainframe I worked on had.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 18/04/2011 8:58 AM, Invisible wrote:
> Oh hell yeah... I'll never forget the time one of the pistols LEFT THE
> ENGINE BLOCK while we were driving back to the camp site one time while
> on holiday. o_O
>

Pissed and broke, been there done that ;-)

>>> and some but not all
>>> families owned an 8-bit home computer of some sort.
>>
>> I forgot, you live in the affluent south. (As I do now.)
>
> Is there actually a difference?
>

Seriously, yes.


>
> I remember my sister collecting marbles. All sorts of different colours.
> Other than looking at them, we could never figure out anything
> interesting to do with 'em though.
>

You need someone to play with. The most prized ones, where I was dragged 
up, were steelies, large ball bearings.


>>
>> My old Acer laptop came with a manual on the HDD.
>
> Really? I haven't seen that on any of the ones I've bought or used.
>
Search for manual.

>> A tad more people than than that but I worked in industry then so there
>> was more need for things like spreadsheets etc.
>
> I imagine most people who had a laptop actually had "the company's
> laptop", not one of their own.
>

Yeah! I would say so, too.

>>> During boiling, the outside of the kettle may become hot. This does not
>>> indicate a fault condition.
>>
>> LOL
>
> No kidding, the manual for our tap says that shortly after use, it may
> dribble water, and this is not a fault. (It's a swan-neck tap.)
>

I've seen signs like that too.

>>> Solo games are still games. ;-)
>>
>> I was thinking of people like your clan.
>
> Sure. But even if you only play Freecell, that's still a "use" for a
> computer, as such...

Okay, okay, I was wrong. (Put it in your diary, in 2011 Stephen was 
wrong.) ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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>> There was a time when searching the manual meant, you know, actually
>> turning
>> pages. I think back when MS used to *print* the manual, they perhaps put
>> more effort into making it worth the paper it's printed on. From what
>> I've
>> seen, today if you ask for help in the latest version of Office, it just
>> takes you to a publicly editable wiki. Great...
>
> Yeah. MS and everyone else seems to have been going downhill in this
> regard. Is Apple as bad, or is their documentation (for programmers)
> actually useful and all?

I couldn't say. It just seems that everybody is putting less effort into 
documentation these days.

> I think programming has turned into a social endeavor, where who you
> follow on twitter is as important as having read the manuals.

There was a time when learning to program meant, you know, learning your 
complexity classes and stuff, not just knowing what the command syntax is...

>> In reality, MS Word is /the only/ word processor that anybody ever
>> uses.
>
> So, then, obviously not too expensive.

I guess that's why so many people steal it, yes...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 4/18/2011 11:26, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I guess that's why so many people steal it, yes...

And people steal movies they can rent for a dollar. That doesn't say much.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 18/04/2011 07:40 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 4/18/2011 11:26, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> I guess that's why so many people steal it, yes...
>
> And people steal movies they can rent for a dollar. That doesn't say much.

Where the hell rents movies for a dollar?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:08:59 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> On 18/04/2011 07:40 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> On 4/18/2011 11:26, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> I guess that's why so many people steal it, yes...
>>
>> And people steal movies they can rent for a dollar. That doesn't say
>> much.
> 
> Where the hell rents movies for a dollar?

http://tinyurl.com/3q2n7c9

Tell me you didn't expect this answer.

Jim

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>> Where the hell rents movies for a dollar?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3q2n7c9
>
> Tell me you didn't expect this answer.

How bizare... This really exists?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:41:52 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> Where the hell rents movies for a dollar?
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/3q2n7c9
>>
>> Tell me you didn't expect this answer.
> 
> How bizare... This really exists?

No, I had a free hour and decided to mock up a website just so I could 
provide that answer to you.  It's completely a fantasy made up just so I 
could answer this question in this way.

Jim

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On 4/18/2011 12:08, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Where the hell rents movies for a dollar?

http://www.redbox.com/


Blu-ray is $1.50 a night.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 15:30:04 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 4/18/2011 12:08, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Where the hell rents movies for a dollar?
> 
> http://www.redbox.com/
> 
> 
> Blu-ray is $1.50 a night.

I'm glad I put that into that site as well, just to make the illusion 
complete. ;)

Along with the dispenser locator.  ;)

Jim

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On 19/04/2011 00:35, Jim Henderson wrote:

> I'm glad I put that into that site as well, just to make the illusion
> complete. ;)
>
> Along with the dispenser locator.  ;)

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1144

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>>>> Where the hell rents movies for a dollar?
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/3q2n7c9
>>>
>>> Tell me you didn't expect this answer.
>>
>> How bizare... This really exists?
>
> No, I had a free hour and decided to mock up a website just so I could
> provide that answer to you.  It's completely a fantasy made up just so I
> could answer this question in this way.

I love the way it says "why pay $4 or $5 to buy a movie when you can 
rent one?"

You know, given that movies /actually/ cost about £15 or so, not $4 
[which is apparently about £2.50 at present].

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On 18/04/2011 17:09, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:02:19 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>
>> In reality, MS Word is /the only/ word processor that anybody ever uses.
>> I tiny few people might use OpenOffice these days, but most people have
>> never heard of it. To them, a word processor = MS Word.
>
> So, where did you pull the statistics for the number of people who use
> OpenOffice?  Did you just invent that statistic, or do you have a
> citation?
>
> Most of the people I deal with use OpenOffice and prefer it to Word.  So
> if you're just going with anecdotal evidence based on your own
> experiences, that's fine, but don't cite that as if it's fact.

Admittedly I don't know hundreds of thousands of people. Still, the vast 
majority of people I know IRL don't know what Linux is, have never heard 
of Firefox, and think MS Office is the only "proper" office suite. You 
know, as if anything you can download for free off the Internet is 
either an illegal pirate copy or a shoddy imitation.

If you're going to tell me that among computer experts the picture is 
different, then sure. But how many people are computer experts?

Post a reply to this message

On 18/04/2011 17:07, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:50:10 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
>> Meh. I remember when you couldn't *get* software without paying money
>> for it! :-P
>>
>> $20 for a word processor isn't expensive. $200 is.
>
> Then you must be older than you claim, because freeware has been around
> nearly as long as computing has been.

I don't know about freeware. When I was a kid, "shareware" was very 
popular. Every issue of Amiga Format would come loaded down with useful 
little utilities that people had written, which you were /supposed/ to 
send money for if you use it regularly. I don't personally know of 
anybody who actually sent a cheque for 4 CHF or whatever to the remote 
country where the author lived.

Of course, back then distribution was kind of a problem. It costs money 
to mail 3" disks around the place. Not to mention that the disks 
themselves used to cost actual money. (By contrast, today you can buy a 
blank CD for literally pence.)

The Internet transformed all of that, of course. It wouldn't surprise me 
if that's why Linux happened when it did. What would have been one 
student's toy proof-of-concept OS kernel became an international 
phenomenon. I suspect without the net it would have been infeasible.

> $200 isn't very much money if you have it.  We've been over that before.

OK, so apparently $200 is currently roughly £120. (Which still doesn't 
take into account average incomes, average cost of living, etc., which 
presumably also differs between the UK and the US.) Even so, it still 
seems like a hell of a lot of money for a program that doesn't even *do* 
very much and isn't especially complicated.

Silly me, I'm thinking that prices have something to do with what it 
costs to produce something. This is the 21st century. Prices are driven 
by how much you can rip people off and get away with it...

> But as Darren said, if you don't want to pay $200 for it, don't - use a
> free alternative.  But don't be surprised if you discover that the free
> version doesn't have the same features as the $200 one does or can't read
> the files that people send you.

I *do* use one of the free alternatives. At home, anyway. At work, I use 
what my employer provides. More to the point, I have to *support* what 
my employer provides, which is why it's so infuriating that there's no 
documentation. [Which is how this discussion started in the first place.]

Of course, OpenOffice has no documentation either. But then you're just 
grateful to be getting a reasonably good bit of software for free...

Post a reply to this message

>> STOP messages you can usually look up. (Almost all of them mean
>> "something happened which is never supposed to happen. Go check your
>> hardware and device drivers." But then, I guess that's the nature of a
>> kernel failure...)
>
> Um, yes, STOP messages are a type of ABEND (ie, Abnormal End) of the
> kernel.

Usually "unhandled kernel-mode exception" or "page fault in non-paged 
area". Fortunately, I haven't seen one of these for years now. I used to 
see them almost daily.

> But those aren't the only error messages I ever had to look up, and I
> never really had a problem finding *something* about the error I was
> running into, that was my point.

Perhaps you can tell me what event #3019 from MRxSmb means then, because 
the description merely says "the redirector failed to determine the 
connection type". (WHAT redirector? WHAT connection? WTF?)

> I'm not really sure what that has to do with what I was saying....

Once upon a time, a compiler or interpreter would have come with an 
extensive user manual. Today you get far less.

Then again, GHC costs nothing. The Pascal compiler I used to use cost me 
£80. (!!)

Post a reply to this message

On 4/19/2011 2:45, Invisible wrote:
> I don't personally know of anybody who actually sent a cheque

AFAIK, I'm the only person in the entire world that ever paid for WinZip.

> without the net it would have been infeasible.

Yep. And without Windows it would have been infeasible too, because there 
wouldn't be enough people with compatible hardware to have a hope in hell of 
getting it working on enough varieties of machines to make it worthwhile.

> of a lot of money for a program that doesn't even *do* very much and isn't
> especially complicated.

This coming from the guy who can't find the documentation on how to make it 
do stuff? :-) Granted, most people don't use most of its sophisticated 
features, but saying Word doesn't do much is like saying LaTeX just 
translates one text file into another format, no biggie.

> Silly me, I'm thinking that prices have something to do with what it costs
> to produce something. This is the 21st century. Prices are driven by how
> much you can rip people off and get away with it...

They always have been.

> I *do* use one of the free alternatives. At home, anyway. At work, I use
> what my employer provides. More to the point, I have to *support* what my
> employer provides, which is why it's so infuriating that there's no
> documentation. [Which is how this discussion started in the first place.]

Next time you have a problem, I'll show you how to find the answer. It's 
generally not difficult, altho sometimes it can be ugly. Especially if 
they've rearranged their site and you start getting 404's.  Really, 
Microsoft? You run Bing but you haven't figured out how to not have internal 
links to broken pages?

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On 4/19/2011 2:56, Invisible wrote:
> Perhaps you can tell me what event #3019 from MRxSmb means then, because the
> description merely says "the redirector failed to determine the connection
> type". (WHAT redirector? WHAT connection? WTF?)

Type "smb redirector connector" into google. Hit #1 or #2:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315244

which does a fine job of explaining the problem and what to do about it 
(i.e., nothing).



For more background, just type in "smb redirector" to google, and one of the 
first hits is

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff686200%28WS.10%29.aspx

"SMB2 Client Redirector Caches Explained"


-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On 19/04/2011 16:50, Darren New wrote:
> On 4/19/2011 2:56, Invisible wrote:
>> Perhaps you can tell me what event #3019 from MRxSmb means then,
>> because the
>> description merely says "the redirector failed to determine the
>> connection
>> type". (WHAT redirector? WHAT connection? WTF?)
>
> Type "smb redirector connector" into google. Hit #1 or #2:
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315244
>
> which does a fine job of explaining the problem and what to do about it
> (i.e., nothing).

How did you know it's something to do with SMB?

Post a reply to this message

On 4/19/2011 8:55, Invisible wrote:
> How did you know it's something to do with SMB?

MRxSmb

Plus, "redirector" and "connector" are terms that SMB uses to describe the 
different parts of the stack. The "redirector" is the part that takes the 
request to X:\... and turns it into a request to \\server\share\... by 
intercepting the request and redirecting it to the appropriate networking 
layers.

The connector is, I think, the part that actually transports the SMB 
protocol over an underlying protocol.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On 4/19/2011 9:13, Darren New wrote:
> On 4/19/2011 8:55, Invisible wrote:
>> How did you know it's something to do with SMB?
>
> MRxSmb

Note, btw, that I didn't even need to put in the error number.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:45:36 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> On 18/04/2011 17:07, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:50:10 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>
>>> Meh. I remember when you couldn't *get* software without paying money
>>> for it! :-P
>>>
>>> $20 for a word processor isn't expensive. $200 is.
>>
>> Then you must be older than you claim, because freeware has been around
>> nearly as long as computing has been.
> 
> I don't know about freeware. When I was a kid, "shareware" was very
> popular. Every issue of Amiga Format would come loaded down with useful
> little utilities that people had written, which you were /supposed/ to
> send money for if you use it regularly. I don't personally know of
> anybody who actually sent a cheque for 4 CHF or whatever to the remote
> country where the author lived.

Most of the magazines I entered code in had no such request.  But 
freeware was all the rage (along with shareware) back then.

>> $200 isn't very much money if you have it.  We've been over that
>> before.
> 
> OK, so apparently $200 is currently roughly £120. (Which still doesn't
> take into account average incomes, average cost of living, etc., which
> presumably also differs between the UK and the US.) Even so, it still
> seems like a hell of a lot of money for a program that doesn't even *do*
> very much and isn't especially complicated.

If it isn't especially complicated, then why do you have problems 
understanding what some of the options do or are for?

> Silly me, I'm thinking that prices have something to do with what it
> costs to produce something. This is the 21st century. Prices are driven
> by how much you can rip people off and get away with it...

Have you written a word processor?  Do you know how much work and testing 
goes into creating something like MS Word or OpenOffice Writer?

You are making the mistake of assuming it *must* be easy.

>> But as Darren said, if you don't want to pay $200 for it, don't - use a
>> free alternative.  But don't be surprised if you discover that the free
>> version doesn't have the same features as the $200 one does or can't
>> read the files that people send you.
> 
> I *do* use one of the free alternatives. At home, anyway. At work, I use
> what my employer provides. More to the point, I have to *support* what
> my employer provides, which is why it's so infuriating that there's no
> documentation. [Which is how this discussion started in the first
> place.]

But Andy, it's just a simple word processor.  Nothing goes into it, 
remember?  $200 is too expensive, so clearly it must be easy to use.

(Yes, I'm using sarcasm again)

> Of course, OpenOffice has no documentation either. But then you're just
> grateful to be getting a reasonably good bit of software for free...

I find the built-in help to be pretty useful myself.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:46:29 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 4/19/2011 2:45, Invisible wrote:
>> I don't personally know of anybody who actually sent a cheque
> 
> AFAIK, I'm the only person in the entire world that ever paid for
> WinZip.

I know my employer has a corporate license.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:34:06 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>>>> Where the hell rents movies for a dollar?
>>>>
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/3q2n7c9
>>>>
>>>> Tell me you didn't expect this answer.
>>>
>>> How bizare... This really exists?
>>
>> No, I had a free hour and decided to mock up a website just so I could
>> provide that answer to you.  It's completely a fantasy made up just so
>> I could answer this question in this way.
> 
> I love the way it says "why pay $4 or $5 to buy a movie when you can
> rent one?"
> 
> You know, given that movies /actually/ cost about £15 or so, not $4
> [which is apparently about £2.50 at present].

Depends on where you shop.  If you shop at used DVD stores (yes, those 
exist as well) you can pick up many titles for dirt cheap.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:31:01 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> On 19/04/2011 00:35, Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> I'm glad I put that into that site as well, just to make the illusion
>> complete. ;)
>>
>> Along with the dispenser locator.  ;)
> 
> http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1144

Now you're beginning to understand. ;)

You're actually the star in a real-life edition of "The Truman Show".

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:37:00 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> On 18/04/2011 17:09, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:02:19 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>
>>> In reality, MS Word is /the only/ word processor that anybody ever
>>> uses. I tiny few people might use OpenOffice these days, but most
>>> people have never heard of it. To them, a word processor = MS Word.
>>
>> So, where did you pull the statistics for the number of people who use
>> OpenOffice?  Did you just invent that statistic, or do you have a
>> citation?
>>
>> Most of the people I deal with use OpenOffice and prefer it to Word. 
>> So if you're just going with anecdotal evidence based on your own
>> experiences, that's fine, but don't cite that as if it's fact.
> 
> Admittedly I don't know hundreds of thousands of people. Still, the vast
> majority of people I know IRL don't know what Linux is, have never heard
> of Firefox, and think MS Office is the only "proper" office suite. You
> know, as if anything you can download for free off the Internet is
> either an illegal pirate copy or a shoddy imitation.

Many people do feel that way.  I remember reading a story in the past 
year about a teacher who told a student to get rid of that Linux stuff 
because they must've pirated it - nobody gives stuff away for free.

> If you're going to tell me that among computer experts the picture is
> different, then sure. But how many people are computer experts?

Not everyone I work with at work is a computer expert.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:56:04 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> STOP messages you can usually look up. (Almost all of them mean
>>> "something happened which is never supposed to happen. Go check your
>>> hardware and device drivers." But then, I guess that's the nature of a
>>> kernel failure...)
>>
>> Um, yes, STOP messages are a type of ABEND (ie, Abnormal End) of the
>> kernel.
> 
> Usually "unhandled kernel-mode exception" or "page fault in non-paged
> area". Fortunately, I haven't seen one of these for years now. I used to
> see them almost daily.

I did as well, but then I switched to Linux.  I think in the 15 years or 
so I've been using Linux now, I've seen the kernel panic maybe twice (and 
the second time was trying to reproduce the first time so I could file a 
bug report).

>> But those aren't the only error messages I ever had to look up, and I
>> never really had a problem finding *something* about the error I was
>> running into, that was my point.
> 
> Perhaps you can tell me what event #3019 from MRxSmb means then, because
> the description merely says "the redirector failed to determine the
> connection type". (WHAT redirector? WHAT connection? WTF?)

First hit on Google:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/889000

That article links to another that says it's an informational message and 
can be safely ignored.

Search terms:  3019 mrxsmb

Total time:  About 30 seconds

>> I'm not really sure what that has to do with what I was saying....
> 
> Once upon a time, a compiler or interpreter would have come with an
> extensive user manual. Today you get far less.

Depends on the compiler and the language.  One example of an esoteric 
compiler used by a small group of people doesn't make a 'trend'.

> Then again, GHC costs nothing. The Pascal compiler I used to use cost me
> £80. (!!)

Meh.  I paid something like $250 for the Borland C compiler when I was in 
college (or just before I went to college).  I probably still have it 
somewhere.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 4/19/2011 11:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
> If it isn't especially complicated, then why do you have problems
> understanding what some of the options do or are for?

Bazinga?

> Have you written a word processor?  Do you know how much work and testing
> goes into creating something like MS Word or OpenOffice Writer?

Actually, I think there's probably more work than most OSS projects would 
want to spend just getting the documentation right.

>> Of course, OpenOffice has no documentation either. But then you're just
>> grateful to be getting a reasonably good bit of software for free...
>
> I find the built-in help to be pretty useful myself.

Ever notice how the OSS projects that *really* take off are the ones that 
have good documentation?  And the ones that limp along on three paws are the 
ones where you scour the internet to find half-ass tutorials on the version 
five years old?

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:28:38 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 4/19/2011 11:04, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> If it isn't especially complicated, then why do you have problems
>> understanding what some of the options do or are for?
> 
> Bazinga?

:)

>> Have you written a word processor?  Do you know how much work and
>> testing goes into creating something like MS Word or OpenOffice Writer?
> 
> Actually, I think there's probably more work than most OSS projects
> would want to spend just getting the documentation right.

Yes, I think that's likely.

>>> Of course, OpenOffice has no documentation either. But then you're
>>> just grateful to be getting a reasonably good bit of software for
>>> free...
>>
>> I find the built-in help to be pretty useful myself.
> 
> Ever notice how the OSS projects that *really* take off are the ones
> that have good documentation?  And the ones that limp along on three
> paws are the ones where you scour the internet to find half-ass
> tutorials on the version five years old?

I would agree that documentation is important - but also usability and 
stability are probably equal factors.  Good documentation with crap 
software doesn't really go far either.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1144
>
> Now you're beginning to understand. ;)
>
> You're actually the star in a real-life edition of "The Truman Show".

Man, I hope the ratings are *awesome*! :-D

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> Admittedly I don't know hundreds of thousands of people. Still, the vast
>> majority of people I know IRL don't know what Linux is, have never heard
>> of Firefox, and think MS Office is the only "proper" office suite. You
>> know, as if anything you can download for free off the Internet is
>> either an illegal pirate copy or a shoddy imitation.
>
> Many people do feel that way.  I remember reading a story in the past
> year about a teacher who told a student to get rid of that Linux stuff
> because they must've pirated it - nobody gives stuff away for free.

I remember reading about a memory of library stuff who saw somebody 
using Telnet. She screamed "OH MY GOD, YOU'RE HACKING OUR COMPUTERS!!!" 
and turned the computer off at the wall. The guy tried to explain what 
he was actually doing, but she wouldn't have it.

Apparently there are a lot of stupid people...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On 19/04/2011 07:28 PM, Darren New wrote:

> Ever notice how the OSS projects that *really* take off are the ones
> that have good documentation? And the ones that limp along on three paws
> are the ones where you scour the internet to find half-ass tutorials on
> the version five years old?

POV-Ray, anyone?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> Usually "unhandled kernel-mode exception" or "page fault in non-paged
>> area". Fortunately, I haven't seen one of these for years now. I used to
>> see them almost daily.
>
> I did as well, but then I switched to Linux.  I think in the 15 years or
> so I've been using Linux now, I've seen the kernel panic maybe twice (and
> the second time was trying to reproduce the first time so I could file a
> bug report).

I've seen plenty of Linux kernel panics. Usually just after you finished 
installing Linux [or so you thought]. Assuming you get it to actually 
work properly in the first place, it seems pretty rock solid, as far as 
I can tell.

>> Perhaps you can tell me what event #3019 from MRxSmb means then, because
>> the description merely says "the redirector failed to determine the
>> connection type". (WHAT redirector? WHAT connection? WTF?)
>
> First hit on Google:
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/889000
>
> That article links to another that says it's an informational message and
> can be safely ignored.

I love the way it says this issue happens with SP2, and there's a 
hotfix, but doesn't say whether that's included in SP3 or not.

>> Once upon a time, a compiler or interpreter would have come with an
>> extensive user manual. Today you get far less.
>
> Depends on the compiler and the language.  One example of an esoteric
> compiler used by a small group of people doesn't make a 'trend'.

It's a data-point I happen to have to hand. I'm sure it's not hard to 
find plenty of others.

>> Then again, GHC costs nothing. The Pascal compiler I used to use cost me
>> £80. (!!)
>
> Meh.  I paid something like $250 for the Borland C compiler when I was in
> college (or just before I went to college).  I probably still have it
> somewhere.

I still have an illegal copy of Borland Turbo Pascal 5.5 for MS-DOS on 
3" floppies somewhere...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On 19/04/2011 05:13 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 4/19/2011 8:55, Invisible wrote:
>> How did you know it's something to do with SMB?
>
> MRxSmb

Wow, that's some impressive guesswork.

> Plus, "redirector" and "connector" are terms that SMB uses to describe
> the different parts of the stack.

Great if you already happen to know about that somehow.

> The "redirector" is the part that
> takes the request to X:\... and turns it into a request to
> \\server\share\... by intercepting the request and redirecting it to the
> appropriate networking layers.
>
> The connector is, I think, the part that actually transports the SMB
> protocol over an underlying protocol.

I suppose I shouldn't complain too much. It's not like Linux documents 
this stuff either...

Oh, wait. Windows costs hundreds of pounds, while Linux is given away 
for free. Hmm, OK, maybe I should complain. :-P

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:29:20 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1144
>>
>> Now you're beginning to understand. ;)
>>
>> You're actually the star in a real-life edition of "The Truman Show".
> 
> Man, I hope the ratings are *awesome*! :-D

You bet, but you need to do better with the product placement. :)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 4/19/2011 11:40, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Good documentation with crap software doesn't really go far either.

True, but at least with half-decent documentation, people might be more 
willing to help. If you can't even tell if what you're doing was *supposed* 
to work, even those who could improve it will be at a loss.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:38:30 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> Usually "unhandled kernel-mode exception" or "page fault in non-paged
>>> area". Fortunately, I haven't seen one of these for years now. I used
>>> to see them almost daily.
>>
>> I did as well, but then I switched to Linux.  I think in the 15 years
>> or so I've been using Linux now, I've seen the kernel panic maybe twice
>> (and the second time was trying to reproduce the first time so I could
>> file a bug report).
> 
> I've seen plenty of Linux kernel panics. Usually just after you finished
> installing Linux [or so you thought]. Assuming you get it to actually
> work properly in the first place, it seems pretty rock solid, as far as
> I can tell.

Well, I've only got about 15 years' experience working with it, and have 
it running on - let's see....9 machines in the house (including my router 
- a non-Intel platform at that).  Oh, and two phones running Android.  
Make that 3, my stepson's phone also runs Android.

A couple of the machines are identical laptops; a couple are off-the-
shelf desktops, and one is a custom-built system.

I'll reiterate:  Only 2 kernel panics in 15 years.

How many times have you installed Linux and how recently?

>>> Perhaps you can tell me what event #3019 from MRxSmb means then,
>>> because the description merely says "the redirector failed to
>>> determine the connection type". (WHAT redirector? WHAT connection?
>>> WTF?)
>>
>> First hit on Google:
>>
>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/889000
>>
>> That article links to another that says it's an informational message
>> and can be safely ignored.
> 
> I love the way it says this issue happens with SP2, and there's a
> hotfix, but doesn't say whether that's included in SP3 or not.

I don't see that that matters - they document that it's informational and 
nothing to worry about.

Oh, and guessing it had to do with SMB?  MRx*Smb* (emphasis added). ;)

>>> Once upon a time, a compiler or interpreter would have come with an
>>> extensive user manual. Today you get far less.
>>
>> Depends on the compiler and the language.  One example of an esoteric
>> compiler used by a small group of people doesn't make a 'trend'.
> 
> It's a data-point I happen to have to hand. I'm sure it's not hard to
> find plenty of others.

Sure, but the plural of anecdote isn't data (as Darren has said).  I can 
provide counter-examples until the sun goes down and what would that 
accomplish?  We have different anecdotes that support different points of 
view.  Big deal.

>>> Then again, GHC costs nothing. The Pascal compiler I used to use cost
>>> me £80. (!!)
>>
>> Meh.  I paid something like $250 for the Borland C compiler when I was
>> in college (or just before I went to college).  I probably still have
>> it somewhere.
> 
> I still have an illegal copy of Borland Turbo Pascal 5.5 for MS-DOS on
> 3" floppies somewhere...

I still have a legal copy somewhere in the basement, if it's not water-
damaged.  Probably still the Turbo Prolog compiler as well.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 4/19/2011 13:33, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> POV-Ray, anyone?

POV-Ray is an excellent example of good documentation. Apache is good, PHP 
isn't bad, gcc is pretty good (given it's implementing languages with 
external specs, etc).

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

Post a reply to this message

On 4/19/2011 13:40, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> On 19/04/2011 05:13 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> On 4/19/2011 8:55, Invisible wrote:
>>> How did you know it's something to do with SMB?
>>
>> MRxSmb
>
> Wow, that's some impressive guesswork.

Thank you. It comes with experience.

>> Plus, "redirector" and "connector" are terms that SMB uses to describe
>> the different parts of the stack.
>
> Great if you already happen to know about that somehow.

It's your job to learn this stuff. Now you know. Go read up how it works. :-)

> Oh, wait. Windows costs hundreds of pounds, while Linux is given away for
> free. Hmm, OK, maybe I should complain. :-P

But it *is* documented. Indeed, I gave you the microsoft links that document 
it. A trivial search showed the answer to your question on microsoft's site. 
  Why do you keep complaining that Microsoft doesn't document this stuff, 
especially in response to a thread that points you at the microsoft 
documentation found with a trivial search of the obvious?

Hundreds of pounds doesn't pay for someone to come and telepathically inject 
into your brain the answers.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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