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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 12:17:03
Message: <4da5cc7f$1@news.povray.org>
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On 4/13/2011 9:12, Warp wrote:
> I find it implausible that all, or even the majority of, or even a
> significant portion of, the people who moved to the US did so for religious
> reasons. I have always understood that the main motivation was economic
Initially, much of the immigration in (say) the later 1500's and early
1600's (i.e., after it was not too hard to survive but before it was what
you'd call crowded), much of it was based on philosophies.
After that, sure, it was the land of opportunity. When people were regularly
starving during the winter, not so much. :-)
At least, that's what we're taught here.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Coding without comments is like
driving without turn signals."
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 12:23:51
Message: <4da5ce17@news.povray.org>
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On 4/13/2011 9:12, Warp wrote:
> for religious reasons.
Remember too that the time period we're talking about, the churches had
*much* more political power in Europe than they do now.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Coding without comments is like
driving without turn signals."
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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 12:57:26
Message: <4da5d5f6$1@news.povray.org>
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On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:04:13 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 4/13/2011 8:57, Warp wrote:
>> Many people have wondered if there's a causality link.
>
> Well, I think the US was originally colonized by people who wanted their
> own religion rather than the state religion, so that sort of makes
> sense. The laws say "the state can't force me to change my religion",
> and it's *because* the people coming here were sufficiently religious
> that they'd spend three months crossing an ocean and leaving everything
> they knew behind in order to be able to do their own religion exactly as
> they liked.
That's what I recall as well - the first British settlers were the
Pilgrims (as I recall) who were trying to escape the state mandated
religion because they didn't agree with it.
But it was a mix of religious and economic reasons. The thing that it
seems many on the extreme right never learned or seem to have forgotten
is that many of the founders were not religious - but Jefferson, Adams,
and Franklin (in particular) are elevated to being some sort of "3 more
disciples of Jesus" when in fact their beliefs were secular (and that's
pretty well documented).
It always makes me laugh (because the other option is to cry) when
Christian fundamentalist Republicans invoke the names of Jefferson,
Adams, and Franklin in a religious context - because obviously they have
no grasp of history.
<sarcasm>But hey, the US public education system is the best in the
world. That's why we can afford to cut funds for it.</sarcasm>
Jim
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From: Warp
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 13:24:57
Message: <4da5dc68@news.povray.org>
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> It always makes me laugh (because the other option is to cry) when
> Christian fundamentalist Republicans invoke the names of Jefferson,
> Adams, and Franklin in a religious context - because obviously they have
> no grasp of history.
It's sad when using argument from authority by referencing famous people
who really were believers is not enough, but they have to fabricate faith
even on outspoken atheists, just because they are well known. (I have seen
several times people seriously claiming that Einstein believed in the
Christian God, completely disregarding and ignoring the fact that Einstein
explicitly and expressly stated several times that he did not. He used the
word "God" sometimes in the pantheistic sense, meaning the same as
"universe".)
(It often also works in the other direction: Historical people who were
religious are claimed to have been atheists, for the sole reason that they
did bad things.)
--
- Warp
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From: Stephen
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 13:28:17
Message: <4da5dd31$1@news.povray.org>
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On 13/04/2011 5:23 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 4/13/2011 9:12, Warp wrote:
>> for religious reasons.
>
> Remember too that the time period we're talking about, the churches had
> *much* more political power in Europe than they do now.
We were taught that it was to escape religious intolerance and oppression.
--
Regards
Stephen
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From: Alain
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 13:40:58
Message: <4da5e02a$1@news.povray.org>
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> Following this from abroad, I don't know if this should be amusing or
> frightening...
>
> http://ncse.com/news/2011/03/antievolution-bill-tennessee-progresses-006545
> http://ncse.com/news/2011/03/intelligent-design-legislation-texas-006531
> http://ncse.com/news/2011/03/antievolution-legislation-florida-006524
> http://ncse.com/news/2011/02/antievolution-legislation-new-mexico-006469
> http://ncse.com/news/2011/01/second-antievolution-bill-oklahoma-006439
> http://ncse.com/news/2011/01/antievolution-legislation-missouri-006421
> http://ncse.com/news/2011/01/antievolution-legislation-kentucky-006389
>
The main problem with the creationists, is that they comfound theory and
dogma.
I propose a theory, you chalenge it, comfront it with your experiments
and observations. If it pass, we have explained something and have a
beter understanding of the world. If it don't pass, we continue
observing and experimenting until we find a beter theory.
I proclaim a dogma. If you chalenge it, you're WRONG! If you find facts
that don't support it, your facts are WRONG, or you invented them!
If the facts realy contradict the dogma, reject them or twist them until
they fit.
Another problem is that they stubornly refuse to acknolege the time
frame and the gigantic life pool implied in evolution.
They want to go from primitive proto-live cells to human in under 10000
years, some say 5000 years from Earth formation to now... In fact, we
are talking about some 2 to 4 billions years. We are talking of
population pool also in 100's of billions for unicellular organisms.
With generation times that can be as short as 20 minutes...
With those numbers, probabilities in the order of 0.000001% tend to look
as 100%.
Alain
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From: Alain
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 13:47:21
Message: <4da5e1a9$1@news.povray.org>
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Le 2011/04/12 19:10, Jim Henderson a écrit :
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:31:59 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
>> When exactly are we going to stop accepting the endless and constant
>> bullshit,
>
> Never, because there will always be people who will take 'belief' over
> 'knowledge' because they've been conditioned to do so.
>
> Jim
They take beleif over knowlege because they thing that the beleif IS
proven knowlege, and actual knowlege is suputations and dreamings or
even some kind of fraud.
Alain
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From: Stephen
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 13:53:45
Message: <4da5e329$1@news.povray.org>
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On 13/04/2011 5:04 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:45:08 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> Either that or tell them to go forth and multiply. If you know what I
>> mean.
>
> But they can't math. ;)
>
> Jim
In that case they can F' off ;-P
--
Regards
Stephen
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From: Alain
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 14:01:37
Message: <4da5e501$1@news.povray.org>
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Le 2011/04/13 12:03, Jim Henderson a écrit :
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:27:59 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>
>> http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2007/08/31/feedback-t-rex-and-
> humans
>>
>> I literally can't decide whether this is serious or not.
>
> They are serious - it does look a lot like someone's having a joke, but
> young-Earth creationists really do believe in the literal truth of the
> bible as a historic record of how the Earth and humanity came into
> existence, and anything to the contrary is rejected because it isn't
> consistent with the bible.
>
> Jim
Even if there is something that can be called "God", and that thing is
unfailible.
It's "teatchings" where reported by some men, who are failible.
The bible was recorded by failible men.
It's content was passed by oral tradition for over a millenia, with all
the changes and morfing that this imply.
Peoples with somewhat similar names are often merged into one.
Peoples with somewhat similar stories can also get merged into one,
keeping the most memorable name.
The languages used did change a LOT in that time.
The writen form was translated countless times.
Each step does bring some alterations.
Now, how can you view that kind of text?
Alain
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From: Warp
Subject: Re: A kind of revolution is happening in the United States
Date: 13 Apr 2011 14:05:43
Message: <4da5e5f6@news.povray.org>
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Alain <aze### [at] qwertyorg> wrote:
> I proclaim a dogma. If you chalenge it, you're WRONG! If you find facts
> that don't support it, your facts are WRONG, or you invented them!
> If the facts realy contradict the dogma, reject them or twist them until
> they fit.
You forgot the psychological projection, iow. projecting the flaws of
your dogma onto the scientific theory it contradicts. (For example,
"creationism is not science" becomes "evolution is not science", and
"creationism requires faith" becomes "evolution requires as much faith
as any religion, if not even more".)
--
- Warp
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