On 12-10-2009 4:03, Neeum Zawan wrote:
> On 10/11/09 15:42, andrel wrote:
>>> We also have "money orders", where you go to the (government run) post
>>> office and give them cash money, and they give you something that
>>> works essentially like a check. So people who don't have a bank
>>> account can still pay people who are remote.
>>
>> People without bank accounts?? Are you living in a third world country?
> 
>     Now _that's_ a fairly parochial statement!

Thanks, I aim to please. ;)

> 
>> I think this German thing is for a single time. Possibly something close
>> to a credit card payment. For recurring payments we use something like
>> that too. Even for the ones that may change every time.
> 
>     Although probably more than half of my friends do automatic bill 
> payment, I don't. I always assume it'll be a hassle if they screw up and 
> take more money than they should have (I once got a phone bill exceeding 
> $600 - their error).
> 
>>> We have all those options. Checks are to pay the guy down the road for
>>> the used bike he sold you or something. :-)
>>
>> If it is a private person, I'd do that in cash. If it is a shop I'd pay
> 
>     Lots of people here don't carry cash, and mostly use cards. That 
> doesn't work well in paying a guy you just met at a garage sale.
> 
>> electronically in the shop. Until a few years ago we had special cheques
> 
>     Some shops here don't take cards, or have minimum required amounts. 
> Lots of people pay most of their stuff by cards, but many prefer paying 
> stuff in cash. I go back and forth. I know I'm unlikely to shop at a 
> store physically if they _don't_ take cash.

I only pay small amounts, typically < $10 in cash. All other things in 
stores are paid electronically in the shop. It is transferred from my 
account to the shop owner at that point in time and the shop owner 
immediately gets conformation that the transaction succeeded. What could 
be more convenient?

>     Also, in many of the apartment buildings I've lived in, they take 
> only checks or money orders. No credit cards, no bank cards, and 
> certainly no cash.

Rent (and mortgages and electricity and...) are, I guess, nearly all set 
up as automatic periodical payments here. A factor might be that it is 
almost impossible to disappear here, so there is no point in not paying. 
   If you can't pay you are removed from the house. That does not happen 
often because the system here will in most cases allow you to rent some 
place. If you don't earn enough the state will pay part of your rent 
(that's not how it work of course, but close enough).

Anyway, this all shows that you live in a financially totally different 
country.  But I knew that already.

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On 12-10-2009 18:08, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> On 11-10-2009 19:43, Darren New wrote:
>>> clipka wrote:
>>>> Darren New schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>> How do people who don't have computers handle sending money through 
>>>>> the mail, then?
>>>>
>>>> Why should they want to do that in the first place?
>>>>
>>>> In Europe (at least in Germany) it has been common practice for 
>>>> decades to get money to John Doe by just ordering your bank to 
>>>> transfer money from your account to John's.
>>>
>>> OK, so you call them on the phone or go in person to transfer stuff? 
>>> Seems inconvenient.
>> No, nowadays simply using your on-line bank account. 
> 
> And how do people who don't have computers (see above) handle that?

Actually, I don't know. I think I don;t know anybody who doesn't, so I 
can not even ask.

>> Earlier by writing a check that you send to the *bank*. 
> 
> That's different.
> 
>>> We also have "money orders", where you go to the (government run) 
>>> post office and give them cash money, and they give you something 
>>> that works essentially like a check. So people who don't have a bank 
>>> account can still pay people who are remote.
>>
>> People without bank accounts?? Are you living in a third world country?
> 
> No, but we're next door to one. (No, not really, but apparently banks 
> are not trustworthy institutions to people from some central/south 
> american countries.)
> 
> We also have immigrants, tourists, and so on.

I have been a tourist some times and it is rather a surprise the first 
time that simple things don't seem to work. Long time ago (before ATM) I 
was with my then girlfriend in the states. She did not earn enough to 
have her own credit card (yes, the cards work differently here too). I 
was at a conference. So, she had money in her account but I was hard to 
get to that. She had also that bewildering experience of going into a 
bank with some Dutch money and find out that this bank could not change 
that into dollars.

>> I am not aware of a name for such a system here. I think that as long 
>> as I can remember all payroll like things were handled by banks. I.e. 
>> it has been virtually impossible to not have a bank account if you 
>> were employed or received money from the state for at least 30 years.
> 
> Well, yes. We still have a mite bit more freedom than that in this 
> country. :-)  People are still allowed to deal purely in cash if they want.

Is there a reason why you would want that freedom?

>> Although it might have been possible to give cheques to a person I 
>> have never done that, nor can I think of a reason to do that here.
> 
> I see. SO you can still send written instructions, but you send them to 
> the bank, and if the person doesn't have a bank account, you're pretty 
> much SOL.

Not familiar with SOL, but I can guess. Well, yes, but as everybody has 
a bank account, that problem seldom occurs.

>>> If they claim never to have received it *and* they cash it, you know 
>>> of course because the bank tells you and probably even gives you a 
>>> picture of their signature on the back of the check.
>>
>> As said, here checks never reach a person, so this can not happen at all.
> 
> That works.
> 
>> I think this German thing is for a single time.
> 
> You can do it a single time here too. It's generally just not worth 
> setting up the payment instructions if you can just mail them a check.

Sure, makes sense within your system.

>> If it is a private person, I'd do that in cash. 
> 
> With the check, you have proof that you paid, for example. Otherwise, 
> you still need to get a receipt, and you still can't mail the thing.

The log of your bank account is proof here.

>> These are probably the closest to your kind of cheques, except for the 
>> guarantee. 
> 
> Our checks come with guarantees in the sense that it's illegal to write 
> a check when you don't have the money to cover it.
> 
> Otherwise, we have what are called "traveler's checks", which are like 
> these, except they're designed so that if they get stolen they can't be 
> used and can be refunded by the issuing bank.  You just buy them for 
> cash, sign one side, and then you sign the other side when you turn it 
> over to the merchant.

Ours will pay the shop owner the amount that is on the cheque no matter 
if you have it in your account or not. What happens if you spend more 
than you have is between you and the bank. The shop owner does not need 
to care about that.

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andrel wrote:
> A factor might be that it is 
> almost impossible to disappear here, so there is no point in not paying. 

I rather suspect it's more the other way around, really.

>   If you can't pay you are removed from the house. 

Same here.

> Anyway, this all shows that you live in a financially totally different 
> country.  But I knew that already.

Not particularly.  We just do checks differently than you do. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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andrel wrote:
> She did not earn enough to 
> have her own credit card (yes, the cards work differently here too).

We have that, or at least certainly had that a couple decades ago. I don't 
know after the latest financial "melt-down" here.

> She had also that bewildering experience of going into a 
> bank with some Dutch money and find out that this bank could not change 
> that into dollars.

Well, we're not Europe. :-) Foreign countries aren't nearly as close to the 
USA as they are close together in Europe.

> Is there a reason why you would want that freedom?

Sure. We don't trust our government.

> Not familiar with SOL, but I can guess. Well, yes, but as everybody has 
> a bank account, that problem seldom occurs.

Well, you mean, except perhaps the tourists, or children, or whatever.

>>> If it is a private person, I'd do that in cash. 
>>
>> With the check, you have proof that you paid, for example. Otherwise, 
>> you still need to get a receipt, and you still can't mail the thing.
> 
> The log of your bank account is proof here.

Generally it doesn't come to that unless you actually get to court. Most 
people are happy to try to figure out what happened. If I mail you a check 
and you don't cash it, I say "Gee, must have gotten lost in the mail" and I 
mail another. Rarely happens, tho.

> Ours will pay the shop owner the amount that is on the cheque no matter 
> if you have it in your account or not. What happens if you spend more 
> than you have is between you and the bank. The shop owner does not need 
> to care about that.

That's rather different, yes. Our banks aren't quite as customer-focused.

To get that level of assurance here, you can take credit/debit cards or 
cash, or bank checks or money orders. Just not personal checks.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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On 12-10-2009 21:48, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> A factor might be that it is almost impossible to disappear here, so 
>> there is no point in not paying. 
> 
> I rather suspect it's more the other way around, really.

is it?

>>   If you can't pay you are removed from the house. 
> 
> Same here.
> 
>> Anyway, this all shows that you live in a financially totally 
>> different country.  But I knew that already.
> 
> Not particularly.  We just do checks differently than you do. :-)
> 
and credit cards and some other things as well.

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On 12-10-2009 21:53, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> She had also that bewildering experience of going into a bank with 
>> some Dutch money and find out that this bank could not change that 
>> into dollars.
> 
> Well, we're not Europe. :-) Foreign countries aren't nearly as close to 
> the USA as they are close together in Europe.

That is what we found out. You can imagine it comes as a shock if you 
are not prepared for it. BTW the USA is closer to a foreign country 
than, say, Malta or Iceland.

>> Is there a reason why you would want that freedom?
> 
> Sure. We don't trust our government.

I know, weird concept if you ask me. ;)

>> Not familiar with SOL, but I can guess. Well, yes, but as everybody 
>> has a bank account, that problem seldom occurs.
> 
> Well, you mean, except perhaps the tourists, or children, or whatever.

Being a tourist is a problem, but that is why that is fun in the first 
place. Children do have bank accounts. Not sure about the whatevers, you 
mean dogs, cats, cars, masonry...? They don't.

>>>> If it is a private person, I'd do that in cash. 
>>>
>>> With the check, you have proof that you paid, for example. Otherwise, 
>>> you still need to get a receipt, and you still can't mail the thing.
>>
>> The log of your bank account is proof here.
> 
> Generally it doesn't come to that unless you actually get to court. Most 
> people are happy to try to figure out what happened. If I mail you a 
> check and you don't cash it, I say "Gee, must have gotten lost in the 
> mail" and I mail another. Rarely happens, tho.

Really weird system, but if you are happy with it, it is OK with me ;)

>> Ours will pay the shop owner the amount that is on the cheque no 
>> matter if you have it in your account or not. What happens if you 
>> spend more than you have is between you and the bank. The shop owner 
>> does not need to care about that.
> 
> That's rather different, yes. Our banks aren't quite as customer-focused.

And as you wouldn't trust a bank anyway...

> To get that level of assurance here, you can take credit/debit cards or 
> cash, or bank checks or money orders. Just not personal checks.

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andrel wrote:
> On 12-10-2009 21:48, Darren New wrote:
>> andrel wrote:
>>> A factor might be that it is almost impossible to disappear here, so 
>>> there is no point in not paying. 
>>
>> I rather suspect it's more the other way around, really.
> 
> is it?

Yes. If you can't even buy a tank full of gas without being tracked by your 
bank, chances are you're not going to do a good job of disappearing. You 
yourself said you don't know many people who get paid in cash, right?

>> Not particularly.  We just do checks differently than you do. :-)
>>
> and credit cards and some other things as well.

What's different about the credit cards?

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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andrel wrote:
> That is what we found out. 

We *do* have banks that *do* all those money changes. It's just not every 
bank carrying around wads of foreign currency that nobody is likely to ask 
for soon. Of course pretty much anywhere can give you canadian money or 
mexican money.

>> Sure. We don't trust our government.
> I know, weird concept if you ask me. ;)

Damn. Would *you* trust our government?  :-)

Seriously, the whole govenment is set up on the prinicple that the 
government can't be trusted, even by the people who set it up.

> Children do have bank accounts. 

Huh, OK.

>> That's rather different, yes. Our banks aren't quite as customer-focused.
> 
> And as you wouldn't trust a bank anyway...

I didn't say *I* don't trust them.  It's more mistrust from people who have 
been robbed by their banks. Maybe the USA will get there pretty soon, but 
it's mostly "hispanic" ethnicities that I have heard distrust banks. (That 
being folks from central america who speak spanish as their main language.)

You can imagine that if you grew up in a country where feudalism was 
rampant, you too might not trust the local government to hold onto your 
money for you.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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On 12-10-2009 22:10, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> On 12-10-2009 21:48, Darren New wrote:
>>> andrel wrote:
>>>> A factor might be that it is almost impossible to disappear here, so 
>>>> there is no point in not paying. 
>>>
>>> I rather suspect it's more the other way around, really.
>>
>> is it?
> 
> Yes. If you can't even buy a tank full of gas without being tracked by 
> your bank, chances are you're not going to do a good job of 
> disappearing. You yourself said you don't know many people who get paid 
> in cash, right?

right, possibly none.

We also have a rather well functioning person administration in the city 
counsel (or whatever you call that). You can not move into a house 
without notifying the city and telling where you came from (Yes in many 
cases you need a permit to live in a particular city. I can not just go 
into a house in a city that I don't work in or have some other 
connection with, but don't ask me details). I think you also need to 
tell the city you leave where you are going to, if you don't you still 
have to pay city taxes. Sounds like big brother but works well. (Too 
well if you are a jewish citizen in the German occupied Netherlands in 
1940-1945)

>>> Not particularly.  We just do checks differently than you do. :-)
>>>
>> and credit cards and some other things as well.
> 
> What's different about the credit cards?

Not entirely sure because I don't know the US system that well.

Needing a certain income to get one and sometimes not being allowed to 
go below zero on the account that is coupled to it might be one 
difference. Perhaps even the fact that it is coupled to a specific bank 
account and issued by that bank. We have a maximum amount we can charge 
the card for per month, irrespective of the balance on your account 
(though the amount is a function of income, I think roughly one month of 
salary on that account in most cases). Variation do exist.
I have been in trouble once in NZ when I nearly could not pay the rent 
of the apartment we rented for a couple of weeks when I was working 
there. The amount exceeded what I was allowed to draw on that card for 
that month. I had more than enough on my account but could not reach it. 
(for some reasons it worked when I split the amount in small steps 
trying to figure out where the limit was exactly). I should have 
informed my bank that I needed a temporary increase in my limit. I did 
not think about that.

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andrel wrote:
> Sounds like big brother but works well. (Too 
> well if you are a jewish citizen in the German occupied Netherlands in 
> 1940-1945)

Yeah. Works great, until it doesn't. :-) We still have enough problems here 
(discrimination problems, illegal immigrant problems, etc) that we still 
have it clear in national memory why you can't really trust the government 
to stick up for you or obey its own laws.  Also perhaps because we have a 
whole crapload of different jurisdictions, legally speaking.

We don't really have to tell anyone where we're going. If the landlord 
doesn't ask, nobody cares.

In China not too many decades ago, you had to get permission from your boss 
to change jobs, houses, or get married, so I think there's a full scale out 
there.

> Needing a certain income to get one 

That's up to the bank that's lending you the money. It's a *credit* card, 
after all. You don't need anything to get a debit card.

> and sometimes not being allowed to 
> go below zero on the account that is coupled to it might be one 
> difference. 

Credit cards aren't coupled to accounts with money in them. Those are debit 
cards here.  (I.e., you have a credit card account, but it's a credit 
account, so there's no money in the account.)

> Perhaps even the fact that it is coupled to a specific bank 
> account and issued by that bank. 

We have that here, yes. Some specific bank has to loan you the money.

> We have a maximum amount we can charge 
> the card for per month, irrespective of the balance on your account 

Well, these are all rules determined by the bank giving you the card. 
There's a maximum amount of money they'll loan you before they start 
declining the card, but there's no way they can just (for example) take 
money out of your bank account if you don't pay them back. They'd actually 
have to get the government to take your money and pay them.

> I had more than enough on my account but could not reach it. 

Yes, it sounds more like you're describing a debit card or an ATM card here. 
(What Visa likes to call a "check card" here, because it's effectively like 
writing a check.)

A credit card here actually gives you money you don't have, just like 
getting a loan for a house.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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