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On 05-Jan-09 1:09, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> That also illustrates the IP difficulties.
>
> For that matter, you asked how to listen without buying the CD. How do
> you know the CD is authorized? :-) I have a few movies I bought on DVD
> in China. Probably bootleg, of course, but *I* wasn't the one copying
> them. Is that "bad"?
>
hmm, yes. You were aware that they were (probably) illegal, so you are
guilty of something that I don't know the English word for.
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andrel wrote:
> On 05-Jan-09 1:09, Darren New wrote:
>> andrel wrote:
>>> That also illustrates the IP difficulties.
>>
>> For that matter, you asked how to listen without buying the CD. How do
>> you know the CD is authorized? :-) I have a few movies I bought on DVD
>> in China. Probably bootleg, of course, but *I* wasn't the one copying
>> them. Is that "bad"?
>>
> hmm, yes. You were aware that they were (probably) illegal, so you are
> guilty of something that I don't know the English word for.
What makes you sure they were illegal in China? And what makes you think
that *I* did anything illegal by buying them, even if they were? As Warp
points out, different countries have different standards. If I buy something
off a shelf in a public store, I don't expect that buying it is illegal
where I buy it. When I go in a restaurant, I don't imagine they're serving
me food that I'll get arrested for eating. How am I to guess that the USA
movies with Chinese subtitles are or aren't authorized for sale in China?
Copyright law (in the USA at least) prevents you from copying things without
permission. Most everything else is pretty much fair game, as evidenced by
the lengths that people selling software go through to try to get you to
agree to more restrictions on your use of the software.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote:
> Actually, thinking on it, there are an awful lot of places that use youtube
> to serve their own content to the public, like
> http://www.rhfleet.org/site/imax/animalopolis.cfm
> does.
Too bad that many artists don't actually own their own music. Their
recording companies do. It's really twisted, but that's how the contracts
work (and the musicians usually don't go challenging that).
For example Warner Music is infamous among artists for removing music
from youtube which has been composed by the artists specifically for youtube,
and uploaded by the artist himself. Warner seems to think that they own
*all* the music created by the artists they have contracts with, regardless
of when and for what purpose they compose.
I suppose no artist has even taken this to court, and I can't blame them.
Would you?
--
- Warp
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On 05-Jan-09 18:23, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> On 05-Jan-09 1:09, Darren New wrote:
>>> andrel wrote:
>>>> That also illustrates the IP difficulties.
>>>
>>> For that matter, you asked how to listen without buying the CD. How
>>> do you know the CD is authorized? :-) I have a few movies I bought on
>>> DVD in China. Probably bootleg, of course, but *I* wasn't the one
>>> copying them. Is that "bad"?
>>>
>> hmm, yes. You were aware that they were (probably) illegal, so you are
>> guilty of something that I don't know the English word for.
>
> What makes you sure they were illegal in China? And what makes you think
> that *I* did anything illegal by buying them, even if they were? As
> Warp points out, different countries have different standards. If I buy
> something off a shelf in a public store, I don't expect that buying it
> is illegal where I buy it. When I go in a restaurant, I don't imagine
> they're serving me food that I'll get arrested for eating. How am I to
> guess that the USA movies with Chinese subtitles are or aren't
> authorized for sale in China?
You could be right, but my guess is that even if pirated DVD's are not
illegal in China (which I doubt) you still cannot import them into the
US. In many countries things made from coral or shells or leather are
sold that you can not import into e.g. the Netherlands because they are
made from protected animals. As a tourist you have to know that. If you
are caught with such items in your luggage you will be prosecuted. "I
didn't know that and there were hundreds of these shells on the beach
anyway" simply does not work, as many tourists have found out. I assume
importing pirated movies may be handled the same. IANAL though.
> Copyright law (in the USA at least) prevents you from copying things
> without permission.
I think the main discussion is: can you legally own pirated copies? IIRC
the rule here is that you can always have at most one copy of an IP
protected work that you do own as a backup. I assume the Rijksmuseum has
a copy of the Nightwatch somewhere in case it gets lost in a fire.
> Most everything else is pretty much fair game, as
> evidenced by the lengths that people selling software go through to try
> to get you to agree to more restrictions on your use of the software.
Often followed by a note that these restriction do not apply in
countries where such restrictions are illegal. ;)
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andrel wrote:
> You could be right, but my guess is that even if pirated DVD's are not
> illegal in China (which I doubt)
What makes you think they're pirated?
> you still cannot import them into the US.
That's a different thing than copyright violation, tho. :-)
> importing pirated movies may be handled the same. IANAL though.
Again, whoever tries to confiscate them or whatever would first have to
prove that the manufacturer in China didn't have a license to copy them in
the first place. (Of course, you could confiscate on suspicion, but that's
just abuse of power.)
>> Copyright law (in the USA at least) prevents you from copying things
>> without permission.
>
> I think the main discussion is: can you legally own pirated copies?
It wouldn't be copyright law that prevents it, is my point. There are laws
against theft of services, and against taking possession of stolen goods
(with various penalties depending on whether you knew they were stolen), but
AFAIK there's no law against owning a copy of something that the seller
shouldn't have copied. I'd like to hear if there is.
> IIRC the rule here is that you can always have at most one copy of an IP
> protected work that you do own as a backup.
The rule *here* is you can have *at least* one copy as a backup. At least
for software.
You can also make copies if it's fundamentally necessary for using the
copyrighted product. E.g., the owner can't claim you violated copyright by
loading the software into the computer's memory or the DVD player's memory.
> Often followed by a note that these restriction do not apply in
> countries where such restrictions are illegal. ;)
That too.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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On 05-Jan-09 21:59, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> You could be right, but my guess is that even if pirated DVD's are not
>> illegal in China (which I doubt)
>
> What makes you think they're pirated?
because they were too cheap is the usual answer.
>> you still cannot import them into the US.
>
> That's a different thing than copyright violation, tho. :-)
never claimed that, I think I said "you are guilty of something that I
don't know the English word for"
>> importing pirated movies may be handled the same. IANAL though.
>
> Again, whoever tries to confiscate them or whatever would first have to
> prove that the manufacturer in China didn't have a license to copy them
> in the first place. (Of course, you could confiscate on suspicion, but
> that's just abuse of power.)
Customs here is trained in recognizing pirated material.
>>> Copyright law (in the USA at least) prevents you from copying things
>>> without permission.
>>
>> I think the main discussion is: can you legally own pirated copies?
>
> It wouldn't be copyright law that prevents it, is my point.
indeed ;)
> There are
> laws against theft of services, and against taking possession of stolen
> goods (with various penalties depending on whether you knew they were
> stolen), but AFAIK there's no law against owning a copy of something
> that the seller shouldn't have copied. I'd like to hear if there is.
I'd say that here you don't even need to have bought it for money.
> > IIRC the rule here is that you can always have at most one copy of an IP
>> protected work that you do own as a backup.
>
> The rule *here* is you can have *at least* one copy as a backup. At
> least for software.
interesting.
> You can also make copies if it's fundamentally necessary for using the
> copyrighted product. E.g., the owner can't claim you violated copyright
> by loading the software into the computer's memory or the DVD player's
> memory.
true
>
>> Often followed by a note that these restriction do not apply in
>> countries where such restrictions are illegal. ;)
>
> That too.
>
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andrel wrote:
> On 05-Jan-09 21:59, Darren New wrote:
>> andrel wrote:
>>> You could be right, but my guess is that even if pirated DVD's are
>>> not illegal in China (which I doubt)
>>
>> What makes you think they're pirated?
>
> because they were too cheap is the usual answer.
But the "real" DVDs are cheap in china too. Nobody has the money to pay a
week's salary for a USD$20 DVD in china.
> never claimed that, I think I said "you are guilty of something that I
> don't know the English word for"
True. I still don't know what that might be, tho. Patents cover importation
of counterfeit goods. I don't think they cover copyrighted materials, and
copyright is about copying, not transporting.
>> The rule *here* is you can have *at least* one copy as a backup. At
>> least for software.
>
> interesting.
Of course the copyright holder can give you permission to make more than one
copy for your own use. The trick is that they're not allowed to make it
impossible for you to back up your software. (I'm pretty sure something like
DVDs are a different set of rules - it all boils down to a big pile of
special cases called "fair use".)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:04:15 -0800, Darren New wrote:
>>> What makes you think they're pirated?
>>
>> because they were too cheap is the usual answer.
>
> But the "real" DVDs are cheap in china too. Nobody has the money to pay
> a week's salary for a USD$20 DVD in china.
I don't know that the real discs make it to China. China doesn't exactly
have strong intellectual property laws. I've heard it said (by people
who have worked with companies in China) that if you operate an
international company in China and you have proprietary data that might
cross the network there, *don't* let it cross the network there. The
Chinese government can mandate that you put a government-provided sniffer
on the network, and turn over any encryption keys that might be in use to
protect your IP.
In one case, I heard of a company not complying with the government
"request" to put the sniffer on the network, and the company got a visit
from the Chinese military to enforce the request.
Jim
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> In one case, I heard of a company not complying with the government
> "request" to put the sniffer on the network, and the company got a visit
> from the Chinese military to enforce the request.
When the name of a country has the word "republic" in it, that's a very
good sign that it isn't.
--
- Warp
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On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:34:04 -0500, Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> In one case, I heard of a company not complying with the government
>> "request" to put the sniffer on the network, and the company got a
>> visit from the Chinese military to enforce the request.
>
> When the name of a country has the word "republic" in it, that's a
> very
> good sign that it isn't.
True enough. :-)
Jim
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