"scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message news:46dbb643@news.povray.org...

> Both cars in the photo look pretty large cars.

        They are. Mine's a Rover 820, which is also large.


Two smaller cars (or even
> one big and one small) would fit easily in there.

    That's also my point - it's kind of like a descrimination against big 
(or long, like mine) cars.


>
> BTW, why is it illegal there to park outside the marked bays?  There 
> doesn't seem to be any yellow lines, or does it say on the sign "parking 
> only in marked bays"?

      I have no idea why it's illegal. All I know is that since the police 
don't control parking regs any more, there's been a drive to get as many 
people booked with an offence as much as possible. Seriously, you should see 
the parking attendants in action around here, they all walk fast looking for 
the next one.




Around where I used to live people always parked how you did
> and nobody got a ticket.

     Scott, I could sit at that window all day and take a zillion pictures 
of people parking 'illegally' just like I did and that person did, and then 
send all those pictures (without the number plates obscured) to the council. 
That would upset the apple cart!  >:o)




>
> If it was me, I would write in the letter for a clarification of exactly 
> what the white line means.  Does your entire tyre foot-print have to be 
> inside the inner border of the line, or is it allowed to be on the line. 
> Or does it mean your entire car must be inside the line, overhangs and 
> all, and which side of the line counts... etc.  If they don't have a 
> detailed policy on this then how can they prosecute people in a fair way, 
> it's probably against some European human rights thingy that they have to 
> treat everyone fairly.. blah blah blah.

     It's a new directive over here now. As I said, the police don't control 
parking any more, the council employs people to do it. It's a self financing 
thing too, so money has to be incoming. I just found this in one of our 
council's  PDF files:

 "20. What if I think the Penalty Charge Notice (ticket) was issued 
unfairly?
You write to us saying why you think it was unfair. We will consider your 
arguments and give you our response. If we believe the ticket was issued for 
valid reasons but you are unhappy with the decision you have the right to 
appeal to an independent adjudication body (National Parking Adjudication 
Service). We will tell you whom to contact if you want to do this."

    It's obvious this is what's going to happen, so I think I'll follow 
through with this if they say I still have to pay. It's the principal. I 
wasn't blocking anyone, and my car wasn't at an angle or anything else - my 
wheels were outside of the back line, that's all.

    ~Steve~

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>      I have no idea why it's illegal. All I know is that since the police 
> don't control parking regs any more, there's been a drive to get as many 
> people booked with an offence as much as possible.

I would check that an offence has actually been committed though.  Without 
any other lines or signs, the white parking lines do not mean anything 
legally.  Ask them to tell you exactly which law you were breaking, AFAIK 
there is no law that says "you must not park outside marked parking spaces". 
Usually where I've seen marked spaces, the rest of the road has double 
reds/yellows or at least a sign that says similar.

Post a reply to this message

"scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message 
news:46dbd735$1@news.povray.org...
>>      I have no idea why it's illegal. All I know is that since the police
>> don't control parking regs any more, there's been a drive to get as many
>> people booked with an offence as much as possible.
>
> I would check that an offence has actually been committed though.  Without
> any other lines or signs, the white parking lines do not mean anything
> legally.  Ask them to tell you exactly which law you were breaking, AFAIK
> there is no law that says "you must not park outside marked parking 
> spaces".
> Usually where I've seen marked spaces, the rest of the road has double
> reds/yellows or at least a sign that says similar.

      Yes, I'm going to ask them this because really, at the end of the day, 
there is no offence. See the attached. Why are those two cars allowed to 
park across the road like that? That blue car can't have received any 
tickets because it's been parking there everyday for the last two years. The 
car in the other image where I was parked also got a ticket, (you can just 
see it on the windscreen) and at first glance I would say that it's her 
fault that she didn't move a bit further on, but then I don't know what the 
circumstances were when she first parked there - there may well have been a 
bigger vehicle in front of her instead of the car now.

    The official signs that are there are only 2 hour waiting signs, there's 
nothing that says you must park within the lines.

     ~Steve~

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Attachments:
Download 'park3.jpg' (66 KB) Download 'park2.jpg' (36 KB)

Preview of image 'park3.jpg'

Preview of image 'park2.jpg'

>      Yes, I'm going to ask them this because really, at the end of the 
> day, there is no offence. See the attached. Why are those two cars allowed 
> to park across the road like that? That blue car can't have received any 
> tickets because it's been parking there everyday for the last two years. 
> The car in the other image where I was parked also got a ticket, (you can 
> just see it on the windscreen) and at first glance I would say that it's 
> her fault that she didn't move a bit further on, but then I don't know 
> what the circumstances were when she first parked there - there may well 
> have been a bigger vehicle in front of her instead of the car now.
>
>    The official signs that are there are only 2 hour waiting signs, 
> there's nothing that says you must park within the lines.

From those photos I can't see anything that indicates any of the cars are 
parked illegally or dangerously.  Look at the red car across the street, it 
is parked in practically the same position as the red car in the foreground 
(position of rear wheel relative to the sunken kerb).  Why should one get a 
ticket and not the other?

If you'd parked on the single yellow line, then fair enough, but you 
weren't, by a long way.

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:
> "Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message 
> news:46db376a$1@news.povray.org...
> 
>>St. wrote:
>>
>>> Are they worst people in the world, or not?
> 
> 
>>Dunno Steve, I'm thinking you'll loose this one.  I mean suppose the 
>>foreward car was some big mother Esplanade or something else huge, a motor 
>>home or something, such that it is taking most of the space.  Are you 
>>going to insist that because it is a 'two-car' space you can park your 
>>minicoup or whatever, and block the guy's drive, just because maybe you 
>>can get your front nose over the line and into some fraction of the space? 
>>Or what if 4 motor bikes were there?  Seems like you could park whatever 
>>you want as long as you don't violate the end markings, but if you can't 
>>fit your car in, however reasonable its size, then you just can't?
> 
> 
>    Oh, I know I'll lose, I'm prepared to pay. As for parking there if there 
> was a bigger vehicle parked there, and say, there was only half a space, I 
> just wouldn't park there, knowing full well that I'd probably get a ticket 
> with half a car stuck out the back end. But, what's that distance in the 
> picture? A foot? 18 inches? It's just petty, that's all. My main point is if 
> it's going to be a two car bay, then make sure that it's big enough for two 
> cars in the first place, otherwise, what's the point?
> 
>     ~Steve~ 
> 
> 
Ahh. Okay, I see what you mean on the 'pettiness' point, that you are 
not really doing harm, and the marking is a guideline.  You might even 
get a break there. I mean if expanding the zone is common practice.  On 
the other hand maybe the owner of the driveway complained.  My brother 
lives in a very toney, leafy, old money section of Toronto with quiet, 
wide streets. When I went to visit him once it became apparent that 
parking was the undeclared war in the neighbourhood.  Before even saying 
hello to me my sister-in-law asks me where I parked! In NY there is an 
actual measurement, 15 inches 2 feet? something like that, that applies 
to driveways.  I know one fellow who actually took a picture of a 
situation when he got ticketed but the parking bureau just told him that 
he could of moved the car before taking the pic!  Obviously not, they 
were packed in like sardines, if he could have he would have in the 
first place.

I'm having problems on the 'two car' idea though.  I mean what is the 
alternative?  Somehow try and mark the space for one 'full size' car and 
limit it to that?  Then what do you do if you have something bigger? At 
least they are giving as much space as they can.  Seems to me they are 
just saying here are the limits, use it however, just don't violate the 
lines.  There are parking *meters* in NY here, usually at the back of a 
block, that are setup such that there is no way the space will 
accommodate a full size model car.  And beware the driver who parks with 
his rear bumper a fraction into the pedestrian crosswalk.  But hey, the 
city needs the money, and everyone wants parking, and so if you have a 
small enough car?  I mean think of it this way, maybe the sanctimonious 
little sh*t in his little car, who gets the little space, would 
otherwise be taking the full size space you need.  Lame, but the best I 
can do for you.

What I hate?  Here the cops are all over yellow cabs for blocking 
traffic.  Meanwhile cab drivers suffer from kidney stones, driving 11 
hours a shift with no where to piss.  There are taxi relief stands, 
quite a lot of them actually, but you would never know it.  Everyone 
just parks in them as if they are free parking, and the signs are never 
enforced by these traffic bums.

Post a reply to this message

"Jim Charter" <jrc### [at] msncom> wrote in message 
news:46dc2187@news.povray.org...


> Ahh. Okay, I see what you mean on the 'pettiness' point, that you are not 
> really doing harm, and the marking is a guideline.  You might even get a 
> break there.

    I doubt it Jim. You don't know our local (money-strapped, bollox) 
councils. But, I'll try to see if I can get off it. Let's see what 
happens... Two images and a printed letter is heading their way tomorrow...


 > I mean if expanding the zone is common practice.

    No, it's not at all common practice, (not around here anyway, maybe 
London or other cities). Once painted, it's there until you start dying of 
old age. There have been cases where if double yellow lines (bad, don't park 
there), have frayed at the edges or the ends of the lines, then any penalty 
notices won't be entertained by the courts if said person takes a picture 
veryfying this.



 On
> the other hand maybe the owner of the driveway complained.

  No, no, I work there (some days, to meet customers). I get on well with 
the landlord. Even if he complained, (and doesn't know my car by now), the 
council wouldn't act on his say-so unless there really was a blockage of his 
driveway, they would come and ask me a few questions first I think...



 My brother
> lives in a very toney, leafy, old money section of Toronto with quiet, 
> wide streets. When I went to visit him once it became apparent that 
> parking was the undeclared war in the neighbourhood.  Before even saying 
> hello to me my sister-in-law asks me where I parked!

  Damn, that's bad...



In NY there is an
> actual measurement, 15 inches 2 feet? something like that, that applies to 
> driveways.  I know one fellow who actually took a picture of a situation 
> when he got ticketed but the parking bureau just told him that he could of 
> moved the car before taking the pic!  Obviously not, they were packed in 
> like sardines, if he could have he would have in the first place.

     Yeah, as numbers, we're just meant to take everything everyone throws 

go to jail in the end if you don't, and your life will be messed up 
bigtime."

    wtf.  Bringiton.



>
> I'm having problems on the 'two car' idea though.  I mean what is the 
> alternative?  Somehow try and mark the space for one 'full size' car and 
> limit it to that?

   The bay directly opposite is a 'one car' bay, but you could fit two 
'smart' cars in there, I reckon, but definately not two 'normal' cars.




 Then what do you do if you have something bigger? At
> least they are giving as much space as they can.  Seems to me they are 
> just saying here are the limits, use it however, just don't violate the 
> lines.


   And I've never seen this example written in stone yet. AFAIK, the local 
laws haven't been published to say that you can't park with your wheels 
outside of the line...

     It might be published somewhere, but it hasn't been put through my 
letterbox.




There are parking *meters* in NY here, usually at the back of a
> block, that are setup such that there is no way the space will accommodate 
> a full size model car.  And beware the driver who parks with his rear 
> bumper a fraction into the pedestrian crosswalk.  But hey, the city needs 
> the money, and everyone wants parking, and so if you have a small enough 
> car?  I mean think of it this way, maybe the sanctimonious little sh*t in 
> his little car, who gets the little space, would otherwise be taking the 
> full size space you need.  Lame, but the best I can do for you.

     Thanks Jim, I know you mean to help. Yes, if a smaller car took two 
spaces in a two car bay, then shouldn't it also get a ticket?


>
> What I hate?  Here the cops are all over yellow cabs for blocking traffic. 
> Meanwhile cab drivers suffer from kidney stones, driving 11 hours a shift 
> with no where to piss.  There are taxi relief stands, quite a lot of them 
> actually, but you would never know it.  Everyone just parks in them as if 
> they are free parking, and the signs are never enforced by these traffic 
> bums.

     Damn, Jim, that's bad. I thought I had hassles...  It's hard work to 
take a wizz? Man, I'd wizz in the back and blame the fares... (?)

      ~Steve~

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St. wrote:

>      Damn, Jim, that's bad. I thought I had hassles...  It's hard work to 
> take a wizz? Man, I'd wizz in the back and blame the fares... (?)
> 
Well there is what the younger guys smirkingly refer to as 'the bathroom 
in the taxi'

Post a reply to this message

St. wrote:
>  Are they worst people in the world, or not?
> 
>   Ok, they've got a job to do, I know. Some people are real pricks and 
> certainly deserve a ticket (or being clamped) for where they're parked, 
> that's for sure. But, what about the 'Little Hitler' wardens? Are they Scum 
> or what? And I mean Scum too.
> 
>     Yes, yes, I got a ticket - first one ever in 20 years of driving. It 
> wouldn't be so bad if I was on double yellows, or parked/blocked somewhere I 
> shouldn't have, BUT, take a look at the attached, that car isn't mine, but 
> that's *exactly* how I parked on the 24th August. It's a TWO CAR BAY. The 
> reason I got a ticket? My rear wheels were over the back line just like that 
> car. I took that picture this morning, but wait, it's Sunday, I doubt if he 
> got a ticket...
> 
>    You know, I'm raging with anger about it, really. That image is being 
> printed out and sent with a letter to the local council. I'll first get them 
> to admit that it's a two car bay, and then I'll argue why the bay isn't big 
> enough for two cars*, and if they say it is, (which they can't), I'll ask 

> they insist I pay it, I'll pay it, but it will cost THEM 5 times as much, 
> and then I'll have MY satisfaction!  >:o(
> 
>     This is why the world is angry.
> 
>          ~Steve~
> 
>    *Two years ago, I watched some council workers out of that very window 
> measuring that very bay and all of the bays in that road - but then nothing 
> happened, no change whatsoever. Why did they do that?
> 
> 
> 

Many years ago I got a ticket for parking on the wrong side of the road 
- against traffic.
It was a residential road with very little traffic, but bumper-bumper 
parking.  I saw a spot and parked it - there was no easy place to turn 
around that I saw.

20 minutes I come back to find a ticket - but there was no fine marked 
so I just ignored it.

30 days later I got a 'double fine' ticket in the mail for failure to 
pay.  I argued that one and sent a copy showing no fine marked.

They were actually very polite and sent a letter stating that even tho 
no fine was marked I had still broken the law and owed the fine - but 
they removed the penalty for not paying on time.

I think most of the time officers need to meet quotas or the 
municipality actually budgets the fines into their fiscal system.

I know MANY places that lower the speed limit by 10 mph for no reason at 
all just to place a speed trap.

Therefore you get screwed.

Oh well... tis life.

Sock it to em Steve!




Tom

Post a reply to this message

"Tom Austin" <taustin> wrote in message news:46dd5439$1@news.povray.org...

> Many years ago I got a ticket for parking on the wrong side of the road - 
> against traffic.
> It was a residential road with very little traffic, but bumper-bumper 
> parking.  I saw a spot and parked it - there was no easy place to turn 
> around that I saw.
>
> 20 minutes I come back to find a ticket - but there was no fine marked so 
> I just ignored it.


    You get a box on the ticket where the warden can check it if there's a 
fine to pay or not 'in their opinion'? Man, I wish we had that. Ours are 
just 'pay first, or else'.


>
> 30 days later I got a 'double fine' ticket in the mail for failure to pay. 
> I argued that one and sent a copy showing no fine marked.
>
> They were actually very polite and sent a letter stating that even tho no 
> fine was marked I had still broken the law and owed the fine - but they 
> removed the penalty for not paying on time.

     Ok, fair enough I suppose... but were you aware that it was illegal to 
park backwards where you are? I *think* it would be illegal here in the UK 
if it was a one-way street. I.E., the actual offence would be 'driving down 
a one-way street the wrong way and then parking incorrectly'. I would never 
do this, but if I did, I think that's the terms they would use... Or some 
code that no-one has ever heard of...




>
> I think most of the time officers need to meet quotas or the municipality 
> actually budgets the fines into their fiscal system.

       Well, I learnt that our new system is now 'self financing' which to 
me means 'get as many as you can in a day/week and everything will be all 
right Jack, you'll keep your job'.


>
> I know MANY places that lower the speed limit by 10 mph for no reason at 
> all just to place a speed trap.
>
> Therefore you get screwed.
>
> Oh well... tis life.

     Yeah, it's life, but it ain't right.


>
> Sock it to em Steve!

 :o) Thanks Tom! Well, I sent one good glossy print of that other (gold) car 
and asked why it's illegal when there is actually no danger to pedestrians 
or other road users, or not blocking that particular drive-way. (BTW, If 
you've been wondering, I work there, that's our office (hence the window 
shot) for this area. I could have parked freely in the space that you see in 
the foreground, (behind the walls), but two cars were taking up *my* 
official spaces, and I was only going to be there a couple of minutes on 
that day, so I parked where I did, and that wouldn't be the first time I did 
that).

    I've held the second image (the one with the red car, and the red car 
opposite that Scott kindly beamed in on) back. I'm hoping for some mistake 
on their part with this, because that's all I've got.




     ~Steve~



> Tom
>

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St. wrote:
> "Tom Austin" <taustin> wrote in message news:46dd5439$1@news.povray.org...
> 
> 
> 
>     You get a box on the ticket where the warden can check it if there's a 
> fine to pay or not 'in their opinion'? Man, I wish we had that. Ours are 
> just 'pay first, or else'.
> 

No, they just check the fine amount - none was checked on my ticket.
I think it is a standard fine for a particular infraction.
They try to make it generic enough to catch everything.

> 
>      Ok, fair enough I suppose... but were you aware that it was illegal to 
> park backwards where you are? I *think* it would be illegal here in the UK 
> if it was a one-way street. I.E., the actual offence would be 'driving down 
> a one-way street the wrong way and then parking incorrectly'. I would never 
> do this, but if I did, I think that's the terms they would use... Or some 
> code that no-one has ever heard of...
> 

I can understand the law on busy streets, but a low use residential 
2-way street....  the cop must have had to make a quota or something....
Ok Ok, it is generally against the law to park facing the wrong way - 
especially in cities as large as Washington DC.


>> I think most of the time officers need to meet quotas or the municipality 
>> actually budgets the fines into their fiscal system.
> 
>        Well, I learnt that our new system is now 'self financing' which to 
> me means 'get as many as you can in a day/week and everything will be all 
> right Jack, you'll keep your job'.
> 

That is the way it should NOT be...  too much incentive for giving a ticket.


> 
>> I know MANY places that lower the speed limit by 10 mph for no reason at 
>> all just to place a speed trap.
>>
>> Therefore you get screwed.
>>
>> Oh well... tis life.
> 
>      Yeah, it's life, but it ain't right.
> 

No, tickets should not be a source of revenue.  The ticket and fine 
should be a punishment and deterrent from breaking the law.  When it 
becomes revenue generating and depended upon, then tickets start to be 
given that are not really justified.


But again, tis life, but it ain't right.


> 
>> Sock it to em Steve!
> 
>  :o) Thanks Tom! Well, I sent one good glossy print of that other (gold) car 
> and asked why it's illegal when there is actually no danger to pedestrians 
> or other road users, or not blocking that particular drive-way. (BTW, If 
> you've been wondering, I work there, that's our office (hence the window 
> shot) for this area. I could have parked freely in the space that you see in 
> the foreground, (behind the walls), but two cars were taking up *my* 
> official spaces, and I was only going to be there a couple of minutes on 
> that day, so I parked where I did, and that wouldn't be the first time I did 
> that).
> 
>     I've held the second image (the one with the red car, and the red car 
> opposite that Scott kindly beamed in on) back. I'm hoping for some mistake 
> on their part with this, because that's all I've got.
> 

> 
> 

Most people don't worry too much about the fine, they just pay and move 
on with life.  I love it when someone who was going 80mph in a 60 zone 
gets a ticket and goes to court and gets off, but the poor woman who 
doesn't go to court gets a bugger of a fine.


again, tis life....


Best of luck - maybe they will hear your voice :-)


Tom

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