So, it seems that we agree that Povray is a good free program. It's
always good to see exactly what you're doing and to be able to experiment.
Such is the design. The question is, what are people doing with it?
Apparently, my hunch has been correct. People that use the program are
artists--or at least that's what they call themselves--who like the idea of
creating seemingly photorealistic if not surrealistic scenes. People also
use the program to acquaint themselves with ray tracing and to "have fun"
from successfully completing "projects," or even from competing in IRTC.
   What surprises me is the ammount of extra knowledge these artists must
obtain: both computer knowledge--for editing INI files for example--and
mathematical knowledge--for working with normalized time in animations, just
to create a picture.
   Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.
I'm talking computer art expos, product design teams, architects, city
planning, anything of the sort. I haven't heard anyone say a thing about the
usefullness of Povray. People have been talking of it as if it were a sport,
not a tool. You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

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>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.

As far as I know, nobody is making any money using POV-Ray.  The people who
write it distribute it freely, so they're not making anything off of it; the
people who use it are largely hobbyists, so they're probably not making
anything either.  By and large it's a 'labor of love.'  People do it for
fun.

--
Doug Eichenberg
http://www.nls.net/douge
dou### [at] nlsnet

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it looks like most answers to this post have been general in nature when
i think you were really wanting personal answers as to what we
personally do with pov, and a little background info about ourselves. 
am i wrong?  some answers can be found at the new povusers.org (or is it
povrayusers.org?) where many users have posted information about
themselves (not me YET).  

as for myself, the reason i started using povray is a long story i will
try to make short.  basically, i'm good at everything i try to do and
have an interest in literally everything.  my brother on the other hand
isn't good at much and always felt he was in my shadow.  he took up
art.  i did too.  my parents asked me to stop.  i complied.  15 years
later, my brother is in a tech school for computer networking (not art)
and i'm at university for electrical engineering (which i love). 
however, i always wished i had pursued art because the little i was able
to do was very good.  with years spent in mathematics and technical
courses (and with a love for computers) however, i decided that computer
graphics is the best hope i have for an artistic outlet.  i started with
paint shop pro, then found terragen, then povray.  i started this year
and love it.  i quickly found that model making comes easy to me, but as
h.e. day was oh so quick to point out, my texturing 'needs work'
(sucks).  so lately, i've been spending a little time modelling and a
lot of time reading everything i can about procedural textures.  i hope
to someday conquer texures and make realistic images in povray.  my goal
is realism in images, but i must say that some of the more abstract and
stylized images other povers make are incredible and often beautiful. 
these folks in this community are a constant inspiration to me.

as far as i know, povray isn't that useful commercially.  quality images
take too darn long to make for commercial purposes unless one has a lot
of preconstructed models laying around.  i have heard, however of people
using other tools to develop a scene and then using povray as the final
renderer.  i don't know how much of that goes around.  you are right
about extra math or computer knowledge being a must.  but there are a
lot of macros and includes already constructed that less technical folfs
can use and also modellers like moray (the one i mainly use), povlab,
and spatch.

Adam wrote:
> 
>    So, it seems that we agree that Povray is a good free program. It's
> always good to see exactly what you're doing and to be able to experiment.
> Such is the design. The question is, what are people doing with it?
> Apparently, my hunch has been correct. People that use the program are
> artists--or at least that's what they call themselves--who like the idea of
> creating seemingly photorealistic if not surrealistic scenes. People also
> use the program to acquaint themselves with ray tracing and to "have fun"
> from successfully completing "projects," or even from competing in IRTC.
>    What surprises me is the ammount of extra knowledge these artists must
> obtain: both computer knowledge--for editing INI files for example--and
> mathematical knowledge--for working with normalized time in animations, just
> to create a picture.
>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.
> I'm talking computer art expos, product design teams, architects, city
> planning, anything of the sort. I haven't heard anyone say a thing about the
> usefullness of Povray. People have been talking of it as if it were a sport,
> not a tool. You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
> international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
> Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

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Adam <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote...

> Apparently, my hunch has been correct. People that use the program are
> artists--or at least that's what they call themselves--

So, in your opinion, what makes a person an artist?  My opinion is that if a
person attempts to be an artist, that simple step means they have succeeded
in their attempt.  (They may not be a great artist, but they are still an
artist.)

>    Then, let me put it this way. Does anyone make good money using Povray.

The fact is that it takes more time to generate an image with POV than with
most commercial tools.  With POV, if you put in a little work, you get poor
results.  If you put in a lot of work, you get excellent results.  With
commercial software, you still have to put in a lot of work to get excellent
results, but if you only put in a little work, the results generally look
acceptable.  For most businesses, which are all about getting things done
quickly, such results are considered "good enough."

If someone is making "good money" creating excellent computer graphics, then
they will probably spend a chunk of that money on a product that has a
larger team of developers (who are motivated by money), a tech-support phone
number, and many cool user-interface features which make life easier.
Because POV lacks these things, it is generally not chosen for commercial
work.

> People have been talking of it as if it were a sport,
> not a tool. You have fun, exercise your mind, get your feet wet, join an
> international phenomenon, etc. That's something you say about scooters or
> Pokemon, not a screwdriver or a calculator.

Yes, it might be better (at this point) to compare POV to a sport as opposed
to a tool.

I have a vision to help build POV into a tool that can be used for
commercial applications, but that will not likely be realized for at least a
few more years.

I should point out that I have used POV-Ray to generate graphics for my job.
However, all that work has been fairly minor, since my primary work is not
as a graphic artist.

-Nathan

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I'm sick of people saying povray sucks just because it haven't got a built
in modeller.
It seems like a lot of people thinks povray is useless just because it's
freeware.

POV-Ray is for the perfectionist, the real artist!
An artist is not one who piracy 3dsmax or lightwave and then says povray is
useless.

--
Peter
http://hertel.no/bigone

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First off, I know of two FEMALE friends of mine that do use Povray...they
don't post anything on here yet, but they do read and are actually quite
good, well at least better than I am. I'm still learning.
   The person that first introduced me to Povray, was still using the dos
version, created stunning images and had them printed out poster size and
sold them as ART. I don't know if he still is or not.
  The point is Povray may be freeware and may not have all the fancy
features of the expensive ones, but if you know what your doing, you can
make images as good as, if not in some cases better than the others.

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Because you asked I'll answer that I do.
Time and again people wonder about all this about the kind of people using
POV-Ray Trace.
I have noticed a lot of the people are interested in programming which
simply makes sense if you think about it.  Those that program the program
and those that program IN the program.  Others that somehow claim to have no
abilities of any kind and yet still manage to render out a fine example of
ray tracing.  And so on and so forth.
As for myself, I was always interested in drawing, then the computer came
along (yes, I'm pre-PC age).  I never understood people using computers for
word processing as much as I can understand why for graphics related things.
Early on I was having fun with Basic and getting pixels to draw on the
monitor in simulated 3D ways.  That's what really got me going on the 3D CG
idea.
Also, like many others with limited budgets, I too found POV-Ray to be the
ultimate answer.  After a few encounters with other programs of course;
Generic CAD and 3D Design were two (years ago) of them.  POV-Ray has been
something I followed as it grew and it just fits me like a glove pretty
much.  GUI with the wireframes and all are not something I can handle with
much skill so it has been all the better to have been using POV-Ray.
I can only guess that there are a large number of people similar to me in
this respect.  Then there are those that can apparently control scene files
in a modeler and hand it over to POV-Ray to trace.
One of the most obvious things that holds me captive then is the code to
image concept.  But I believe "niche" would never be the word for it since
it's almost a cult following in many ways.  That could be said of many 3D
programs though.
Okay, so there is my answer in a giant nutshell.

Bob

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Adam wrote:

>    What kind of people use Povray? I keep hearing about this "certain
> niche," but more specifically...

In addition to what other people said, there are non-hobby applications of
Povray, usually in the education area. I've seen it being used for teaching
math, chemistry, architecture, physics and biology, for instance. Two
examples among many others :
http://ampere.scale.uiuc.edu/~m-lexa/cell/cell.html
http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~andrbh/raytrace/raytrace.html

Povray is also used is by people who have to make technical 3D images in
sectors where 3D professional renderers are unknown.

About commercial use, it's certainly not competitive due to the long
development process, however a few of us sell images to art patrons,
galleries, or companies. As a matter a fact, I just finished a book cover
for a scientific editor.

G.

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I use POV-Ray because it's so much fun.  It's like a massive set of Lego,
Macarno, and plastercein (sp?) all rolled into one, with a bunch of industrial
grade lighting systems thrown in for good measure.  I like art and beautiful
images but can't draw to save my life, so for me POV is a gift from 
the gods, simple enough for me to understand and complicated enough to hold
my interest forever, it seems that POV grows with me. 

-- 
Cheers
Steve              email mailto:ste### [at] zeroppsuklinuxnet

%HAV-A-NICEDAY Error not enough coffee  0 pps. 

web http://www.zeropps.uklinux.net/

or  http://start.at/zero-pps

  2:30am  up 27 days, 56 min,  2 users,  load average: 1.00, 1.00, 1.11

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On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:41:12 -0700, Adam <bel### [at] yahoocom> wrote:

>   What kind of people use Povray? 

Basically all kinds of people -- students, parents, artists, engineer
programmers... I haven't noticed a trend in that regard.

>I keep hearing about this "certain niche," but more specifically... 

That niche is, IMHO, defined by a) the cost-quality ratio, b) the
approach, c) the quality of peer and developer support and d) the
challenge

>I don't see many female users for instance. 

It doesn't take many flowers to have a lovely garden.

>Also, the program doesn't seem to be well suited for
>Engineering, drafting, or even designing real-life objects. 

A lot of people model real-life objects in POV. I for one have
modelled some home appliances like a washer and a fridge, to name a
couple. I recall reading a post by a professional product designer who
used POV to model and render his designs (the post featured an
espresso machine IIRC).

>Now, I am well aware that the ray tracer is just made to create 
>images, but that's the problem. Other programs may offer tension or 
>elasticity analyses, or offer  to work with materials with actual 
>physical properties.

POV is not ProEngineer. If it were, I would have never used it because
of the price tag (compared to which Max 3.0 is given away for free).
On the other hand, there are some real-life engineering uses for it.
For example, my brother wrote a program for controlling a machine for
making Fresnel lens. I then used photon mapped caustics to test the
lens, saving thousands of dollars for real-life testing. (And I was
stupid enough not to claim a chunk of this saved money but that's
another story)

>   I haven't heard of any company using POV-ray to design their bikes or
>remote controls, like with Rhino. 

LOL my bike surely looks like it was modelled in Rhino, there's not an
inch of a straight line in it :)

But read above :)

>Povray is too difficult for, say, architecture, since walkthroughs 
>are a pain. 

For design, maybe, but have you thought about lighting? I have a
friend who is an undergraduate in Architecture and we will be doing a
project together, she will do the modelling in ArchiCAD (or AutoCAD)
and I will render it in MegaPOV with radiosity, caustics (for the
pool) and whatnot.

>The features include cylinders, not pipes; "clipped_by," not "window." 
>It seems that everything you do, has to be done from scratch unless 
>you look for include files. 

Well, the legs of my tables are cylinders, not pipes. And the
ventilation holes on my PC case are certainly not windows. What do you
think is better, providing an easy-to-use but limited specific
solution or a somewhat more complex yet much more powerful general
approach?

>Even for graphics, motion picture industries use expensive programs 
>like 3D Studio, and others simply use 2D programs like Photoshop.

Yes but they invest money to make big money. I am certain POV could
get to MAX's level if the POV Team were as big, as well paid and as
well supplied as the MAX development team. But then again, POV would
cost as much as MAX which I would not like at all.

The more you invest, the faster you will work. Commercial products
make the life of the artist easy, so an artist doesn't have to be a
techie, too, or learn programming or anything. I knew a girl who did
wonders in PaintBrush for Windows 3.1 (yeah, in 16 colors!) Imagine
what happened when she finally got Painter. 

>   So what does that leave us with? Artists who want total control over
>the scene? Computer programmers who simply want to challenge themselves?

One word: enthusiasts :)

>In other words, it seems to me that Povray has few practical
>applications, but is more of a hobby, or even a teaching device for
>understanding higher-level programs.

This is quite true, but bear in mind, 'few' is not 'none' :) . The
program is there and it's there for good, what you are able to do with
it is your own business. Some people use it to illustrate the books
they write. Others use it for modelling real-life objects and/or
scenes for one reason or the other. Then there are those who use it to
supplemnent the graphics work they do in professional packages. But
mostly, we're doing it for fun.


Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] usanet
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

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