IMBJR wrote:
> 
> Chris Huff wrote in message ...
> >In article <39a83b6d@news.povray.org>, "IMBJR" <imb### [at] imbjrcom> wrote:
> >
> >> True, but I prefer the Usenet aproach to exhibition. I treat my
> >> website as an archive of my best work.
> >
> >This isn't Usenet. :-)
> 
> Mmm, it is because it works by the NTTP protocol - which makes it usenet.
> 
> >This news server (news.povray.org) is a private server. With luck,
> 
> It's not private, you don't even need an account to access it. It is a
> public news server that is a part of Usenet.

I can assure you that both Chris H. and I are intimately familiar with
this news server and I can say without reservation that it is in no
way associated with USENET in any way, shape, or form. It is privately
funded, owned, and operated by a member for the POV-Team who will not
under any circumstances allow it to be connected to USENET by any means
possible. This how they manage to keep news-bots and spammers out of
here. You will notice, if you take the time to look, that the majority
of people that post here do so with their real names and e-mail addresses
because they know that it is a private server that is not used as a
collection point for spammers and address collectors.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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Chris Huff wrote in message ...
>In article <39a81986@news.povray.org>, "IMBJR" <imb### [at] imbjrcom> wrote:
>
>> Just a place to exhibit my work.
>
>But for what reason do you want to exhibit your work, if not to hear
>(well, read) people's comments on it?

This may sound strange, but that's not what I do this for. I do it to
express myself. What others make of it is up to them.

>
>
>> Not enough space on my website!
>
>That *is* a problem...but it shouldn't be too difficult to get some
>space on some free provider.

It is easy, and I do have some, but it is taken up with other material.
However, as I have stated before I prefer Usenet for exhibition.

>
>
>> True, but this is how I prefer to exhibit my material.
>
>Why? Just wondering...

The impermanence of the medium. Websites can get too static. I know mine
does as it only gets updated once a quarter - and that's only with the stuff
I deem good enough.

>
>
>> I don't think many of my pieces went over that - animated or not.
>
>That may be so, but you have to admit, the sheer number of images was a
>bit overwhelming. :-)

I've posted more in other groups with less reaction. I suppose it is what
each group is used to.

>
>--
>Christopher James Huff
>Personal: chr### [at] maccom, http://homepage.mac.com/chrishuff/
>TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg, http://tag.povray.org/
>
><><

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Ken wrote in message <39A896A3.3827E31D@pacbell.net>...
>
>
>IMBJR wrote:
>>
>> Chris Huff wrote in message ...
>> >In article <39a83b6d@news.povray.org>, "IMBJR" <imb### [at] imbjrcom> wrote:
>> >
>> >> True, but I prefer the Usenet aproach to exhibition. I treat my
>> >> website as an archive of my best work.
>> >
>> >This isn't Usenet. :-)
>>
>> Mmm, it is because it works by the NTTP protocol - which makes it usenet.
>>
>> >This news server (news.povray.org) is a private server. With luck,
>>
>> It's not private, you don't even need an account to access it. It is a
>> public news server that is a part of Usenet.
>
>I can assure you that both Chris H. and I are intimately familiar with
>this news server and I can say without reservation that it is in no
>way associated with USENET in any way, shape, or form. It is privately
>funded, owned, and operated by a member for the POV-Team who will not
>under any circumstances allow it to be connected to USENET by any means
>possible. This how they manage to keep news-bots and spammers out of
>here. You will notice, if you take the time to look, that the majority

But if I can connect to this server, what stops them? They could flood the
groups with spam in a trice. It would be a full time job making sure nothing
like that gets through. See my reply to Chris Huff on the subject of whether
or not this Usenet.

>of people that post here do so with their real names and e-mail addresses
>because they know that it is a private server that is not used as a
>collection point for spammers and address collectors.

I prefer a pseudonym, though you will find my e-mail address is quite valid.

I think it is quite possible that spammers are in fact harvesting e-mail
addresses from these groups. The POV server will only see someone accessing
the headers like the rest of us do. I think it is naive of you to believe
you are safe from spam; if the spammers just got one sniff of this server
they would have a field day.

>
>--
>Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
>http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

Post a reply to this message

Chris Huff wrote in message ...
>In article <39a846ee@news.povray.org>, "IMBJR" <imb### [at] imbjrcom> wrote:
>
>> Mmm, it is because it works by the NTTP protocol - which makes it usenet.
>
>No, it isn't. That just makes it a news server, it is not part of the
>Usenet network.

The only reason I think you can hold on to that view is that this news
server has a set of pretty unique newsgroups on it. Plus I believe the POV
news admin people I have trouble in the past from keeping this server
isolated; rogue duplicates of the groups have appeared out in the "wild".
I'm sure that with a little mucking about, I could cross-post this message
to any other non-POV news groups. You are only seperated by a very thin
membrane. Is it this isolationist attitude that explains the reaction I'm
getting? A reaction that has so far reduced one person to forge my identity
and post a "Confession" to alt.binaries.slack. Needless to say, that
person's
ISP recieved a complaint.

>
>
>> It's not private, you don't even need an account to access it. It is a
>> public news server that is a part of Usenet.
>
>It *IS* private, and is *NOT* part of Usenet. Look at your headers:

Here is part of what I think you are refering to:

X-Authenticated-User: chuff
X-No-Archive: Yes
X-Copyright: This copyrighted article comes from a private news server and
may NOT be distributed on USENET or other news servers.
X-POV-Header: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Only the first line is of a type I do not have in my headers in posts to
these groups. I assume some prior arrangement with the POV news admin team
lets you do that - or have you inserted it yourself for reasons of
demarcation? I cannot see how they make this not part of Usenet in the
general sense.

>
>X-Copyright: This copyrighted article comes from a private news server
>and may NOT be distributed on USENET or other news servers.
>
>This is placed on every article posted here. The message "Welcome To the

Yeah! I've got those too. Any other news servers like to insert other types
of header, just like regular Usenet.

>POV-Ray News Groups" deals with this, specifically the section titled
>"News Server Acceptable Use Policy". There is also a message with that
>same title, "News Server Acceptable Use Policy", which has more
>information. One relevant quote from that post:
>"We also wish to remind you that this is a privately owned news server
>and as such you are considered an invited guest."

Yes, it is privately owned (like virtually all news servers: commercially,
academically, or even as a hobby) - it is not private though. It still forms
part of the general usenet community.

>
>
>> I must admit I was not aware of such guidelines. Please post them for
>> me so I know what they are instead of just hearing of them
>> second-hand. Not that I don't trust you, it's just a matter of
>> interpretation.
>
>Just read the messages in povray.announce.frequently-asked-questions.
>They cover many of these issues.

Cheers.

>
>
>> Well, not to cast myself as some sort of Lord of POV, if that was the
>> case then there's a lot of learning to be done by the good people who
>> post here.
>> Most of it appears to be experiments that people are trying out or
>> Works-in-Progress - neither are what I would describe as best work.
>
>Hmm, I guess I didn't express myself very clearly, sorry...

I am too. I just realised I'm posting this to the animations group when I
was thinking of the stills group.

>What I meant was: people don't typically post every thing they render,
>and pick out the best images for their web site. When they post works in
>progress or experiments, they do so for feedback: comments, suggestions,
>etc. If they have a large number of images, they usually put up a
>gallery, or just upload the images somewhere and provide direct links to
>them.

I didn't post everything I have rendered. There are pieces I have that I did
not think fit for the group - though they have been posted on other groups
previousy.
>
>
>> I must admit I do not read the text that comes with binaries, well
>> not today at any rate as I was attempting to download a considerable
>> quantity of the posts and could not read each one, only view its
>> attachment.
>
>If you are downloading all the articles, I can understand why you don't
>read all of them. :-)

There were so many my image viewer choked!

>
>--
>Christopher James Huff
>Personal: chr### [at] maccom, http://homepage.mac.com/chrishuff/
>TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg, http://tag.povray.org/
>
><><

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> Remember, no one is forcing you to download
> these images.

they are when quite a number of us on modem connections use outlook express
to auto download all new posts from a selection of groups!


> Feedback is not required. It is up the individual whether or not to reply.
> Again, no one is being forced.

then why bother posting, do a web site instead! - the whole idea of these
ng's is discussion and mutual support

Rick

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Rick [Kitty5] wrote in message <39a90660@news.povray.org>...
>> Remember, no one is forcing you to download
>> these images.
>
>they are when quite a number of us on modem connections use outlook express
>to auto download all new posts from a selection of groups!

My advice is never auto-download, you never know what you will pick up.

>
>
>> Feedback is not required. It is up the individual whether or not to
reply.
>> Again, no one is being forced.
>
>then why bother posting, do a web site instead! - the whole idea of these
>ng's is discussion and mutual support

Then why is it a binaries newsgroup? That's for images.

>
>Rick
>
>

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In article <39a8dbd5@news.povray.org>, "IMBJR" <imb### [at] imbjrcom> wrote:

> The only reason I think you can hold on to that view is that this 
> news server has a set of pretty unique newsgroups on it.

No, the administration can "hold on to that view" because it is the 
truth.


> Plus I believe the POV news admin people I have trouble in the past 
> from keeping this server isolated; rogue duplicates of the groups 
> have appeared out in the "wild".

Some have stolen the material on this server and placed it on Usenet 
servers, but that is not legal, and does not make this server public or 
a part of Usenet.


> I'm sure that with a little mucking about, I could cross-post this 
> message to any other non-POV news groups. You are only seperated by a 
> very thin membrane.

You might be able to post to groups on a Usenet server and povray.org, 
but it won't work right, because povray.org is not part of Usenet.


> Is it this isolationist attitude that explains the reaction I'm 
> getting?

Not all news groups are part of Usenet. Usenet is a specific network and 
heirarchy of newsgroups, povray.org is completely independant of Usenet. 
It is not due to any isolationist attitude, it is just because becoming 
part of Usenet would be too much trouble and would have little or no 
gain. The groups on this server are completely separate.

Just believe me: I am not misleading you, and I am not misinformed. This 
server(news.povray.org) is *not* part of Usenet, and is *not* a public 
server. It is a private server intended for the support of POV-Ray 
users. You are not required to have a password in order to access most 
of the groups, but that does not make it a public server or part of 
Usenet. If these groups appear on a Usenet server, they are either an 
independant set of groups, or they are illegally using material from 
news.povray.org.


> Only the first line is of a type I do not have in my headers in posts 
> to these groups. I assume some prior arrangement with the POV news 
> admin team lets you do that - or have you inserted it yourself for 
> reasons of demarcation? I cannot see how they make this not part of 
> Usenet in the general sense.

I was referring specifically to the X-Copyright header.
The reason for the X-Authenticated-User header in my messages is that I 
am a member of the POV-Ray TAG, and an authenticated user of this 
server, which means I have a password and can access some of the private 
groups devoted to the TAG and POV-Team. For more information, read the 
messages in povray.announce.frequently-asked-questions and visit 
http://tag.povray.org/.


> Yeah! I've got those too. Any other news servers like to insert other 
> types of header, just like regular Usenet.

But this isn't Usenet!


> Yes, it is privately owned (like virtually all news servers: 
> commercially, academically, or even as a hobby) - it is not private 
> though. It still forms part of the general usenet community.

It is a privately owned private server with private groups which is not 
associated with Usenet in any way, except they both use the same 
protocol.


> I didn't post everything I have rendered. There are pieces I have 
> that I did not think fit for the group - though they have been posted 
> on other groups previousy.

I understand that, but most people don't post large numbers of images at 
once. It is understandable that people aren't used to it...

-- 
Christopher James Huff
Personal: chr### [at] maccom, http://homepage.mac.com/chrishuff/
TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg, http://tag.povray.org/

<><

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In article <39a92035@news.povray.org>, "IMBJR" <imb### [at] imbjrcom> wrote:

> My advice is never auto-download, you never know what you will pick up.

Telling people do things *your* way just so you can post what you want 
seems a little...arrogant. Sorry.


> Then why is it a binaries newsgroup? That's for images.

It is a binaries newsgroup so people can post images. People post images 
so they can recieve help, show certain techniques they have developed, 
occasionally demonstrate bug reports, or show their work. Again quoting 
from two of the official announcements in p.a.f-a-q:

"*Images Group
  If you want opinions on an image you are working on we have a binaries
image group where you can post an image for critique and get suggestions
from other POV-Ray users. This is one of our most popular groups.
[please read the announcement on posting guidelines for this group]"

and:

"First we would like to remind all of our visitors that this news
server exists first and foremost to offer online support for the
users of POV-Ray. We do this by allowing peer support between users
of the program,  sometimes through direct support from POV-Team
members themselves, or by way of the POV-Ray Technical Assistance
Group. Any other use of this news server is secondary to this goal."

-- 
Christopher James Huff
Personal: chr### [at] maccom, http://homepage.mac.com/chrishuff/
TAG: chr### [at] tagpovrayorg, http://tag.povray.org/

<><

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On Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:44:54 -0500, Chris Huff <chr### [at] maccom>
wrote:

>In article <39a92035@news.povray.org>, "IMBJR" <imb### [at] imbjrcom> wrote:
>
>> My advice is never auto-download, you never know what you will pick up.
>
>Telling people do things *your* way just so you can post what you want 
>seems a little...arrogant. Sorry.

I see you are unfamilar with the difference between "advice" (which is
what I gave) and "telling people to do things *your* way" (which is an
order). If I seem to wish to influence people's use of this service,
it is merely to help them with their time/money budgets; and if this
group is not about giving advice and/or help (as someone else stated
it was) then smack my legs for giving it.

>
>
>> Then why is it a binaries newsgroup? That's for images.
>
>It is a binaries newsgroup so people can post images. People post images 
>so they can recieve help, show certain techniques they have developed, 

Mmm, there's that help ethos I was guilty of transgressing up above.

>occasionally demonstrate bug reports, or show their work. Again quoting 
>from two of the official announcements in p.a.f-a-q:
>
>"*Images Group
>  If you want opinions on an image you are working on we have a binaries
>image group where you can post an image for critique and get suggestions
>from other POV-Ray users. This is one of our most popular groups.
>[please read the announcement on posting guidelines for this group]"

Mmm, a binaries groups with extensions! Excellent, though of course
not stated as manditory for the sender or receiver.

>
>and:
>
>"First we would like to remind all of our visitors that this news
>server exists first and foremost to offer online support for the
>users of POV-Ray. We do this by allowing peer support between users
>of the program,  sometimes through direct support from POV-Team
>members themselves, or by way of the POV-Ray Technical Assistance
>Group. Any other use of this news server is secondary to this goal."

Well, it seems I can stand somewhat corrected as to the intent of the
server. It's just that general experience of binaries groups seems to
point to them being for exhibition, and that's the way I've always
used them. Well, people, have at my work if you must!

----------------------------------------------------
Symmetry is wrong:
http://www.imbjr.com

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IMBJR wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>>     That *is* a problem...but it shouldn't be too difficult to get
>>     some space on some free provider.
>  It is easy, and I do have some, but it is taken up with other
>  material. However, as I have stated before I prefer Usenet
>  for exhibition.
>>> Mmm, it is because it works by the NTTP protocol - which makes it usenet.

This ain't the usenet, it's not like the National Park Service or Central
Park.   It's more like a sheltered picnic table on a church's property, which is
free for public use on weekdays, within certain guidelines. You come in and say
you want to store a few cases of canned goods on it, because your pantry is
full.  Your main justification is that you can get away with it.  How incredibly
selfish.  You point to the lack of a lock on the door as justification, making
the church consider getting a lock.

> Yes, it is privately owned (like virtually all news servers: commercially,
> academically, or even as a hobby) - it is not private though. It still forms
> part of the general usenet community.

A picnic table with no lock means it's Central Park, right ?

Do private servers---from usenet ones like Deja.com to non-usenet ones like
news.povray.org--- have the right to decide the terms of the public's free use
of their picnic tables?

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