I know alot of the POV People like to do everything in POV..

How much of the stuff that I see in pov is done in Moray?

I'm thinking about using moray to model a few things.. and wondered in the
Pov community..

Is the program smiled or frowned upon?

:) Just a friendly question..

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On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:01:06 -0500, "Dave Bates [{Norman}]" <dab### [at] msncom> wrote:
> I know alot of the POV People like to do everything in POV..
> 
> How much of the stuff that I see in pov is done in Moray?
> 
> I'm thinking about using moray to model a few things.. and wondered in the
> Pov community..
> 
> Is the program smiled or frowned upon?
> 
> :) Just a friendly question..
> 
> 

For myself.. I have tried it but some things really annoy me. While being able to edit
stuff graphically
is useful it lacks sufficient precision and everything starts as a 1 unit object.
There is absolutely no
way to produce a model by scaling and rotating something like a cylinder that will
'ever' be as accurate
as specifying the end points directly and I gave up trying. Sadly a box can't be
defined that way in
either the SDL or Moray, so some limitations still exist either way, but they are imho
worse in Moray. It
really depends on what you are doing and how accurate you need it to be, but most of
the exceptionally
photo realistic stuff is never done in an editor, precisely for these reasons. I would
say it is good for
A) learning how a lot of POV stuff works and B) making stuff where you don't need
precise control of
the result, but I believe it does have a few serious flaws.

However, that said it is a 'lot' easier to design something graphically than by hand
and some things like
positioning 50 columns in a circle in a room, correctly handling animation using IK
and some other
stuff are easier to handle in Moray instead of directly coding them. Like anything it
is a useful tool, 
but when it stops being useful, you stop using it. ;)

As to the questions of 'how much is done in it' and 'is it smiled or frowned upon' I
would say 'I have
no real idea' and 'both, depending on who you talk too'.

Post a reply to this message

Patrick Elliott wrote:
> There is absolutely no way to produce a model by scaling and
> rotating something like a cylinder that will 'ever' be as
> accurate as specifying the end points directly and I gave
> up trying. Sadly a box can't be defined that way in
> either the SDL or Moray, so some limitations still
> exist either way, but they are imho worse in Moray. 

I dunno, I almost never position stuff by moving it around
with the mouse; I use the xyz input boxes, occasioanlly
fudging around when moray's precision runs out.  But as
far as I can tell, it is quite easy to accurately specify
end points for objects, or at least the centre of the
object and figure out everything else using calculator.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com
mirror: http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/z/9/z993126

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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"Dave Bates [{Norman}]" wrote:
> 
> I know alot of the POV People like to do everything in POV..
> 
> How much of the stuff that I see in pov is done in Moray?
> 
> I'm thinking about using moray to model a few things.. and wondered in the
> Pov community..
> 
> Is the program smiled or frowned upon?

IMNSHO: Who cares?  Use what *you* want to in order to accomplish what
*you* want to accomplish.  Don't let others stifle your ideas, your
dreams, and your images!  Now have at it!

-peter 

> 
> :) Just a friendly question..

-just a freidnly reply. ;o)

-- 
Modeling slave:
"Ballet pour ma fille."
http://www.applesnake.net

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But I think you CAN produce and position extremely accurately an object in
Moray!! That is what the Local Coordinates are for, in combination with the
regular translates, rotates, or scalings.
And concerning POV and/or Moray: It is a matter of what you want to build,
and it is a matter of taste. Personally, I am highly satisfied with the
combination of both, in whatever order in which I use them (Moray to POV or
POV to Moray). It is the end result that counts!

Thomas

"Patrick Elliott" <sel### [at] rrazcom> schreef in bericht
news:1103_1022293453@news.povray.org...
> On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:01:06 -0500, "Dave Bates [{Norman}]"
<dab### [at] msncom> wrote:
> > I know alot of the POV People like to do everything in POV..
> >
> > How much of the stuff that I see in pov is done in Moray?
> >
> > I'm thinking about using moray to model a few things.. and wondered in
the
> > Pov community..
> >
> > Is the program smiled or frowned upon?
> >
> > :) Just a friendly question..
> >
> >
>
> For myself.. I have tried it but some things really annoy me. While being
able to edit stuff graphically
> is useful it lacks sufficient precision and everything starts as a 1 unit
object. There is absolutely no
> way to produce a model by scaling and rotating something like a cylinder
that will 'ever' be as accurate
> as specifying the end points directly and I gave up trying. Sadly a box
can't be defined that way in
> either the SDL or Moray, so some limitations still exist either way, but
they are imho worse in Moray. It
> really depends on what you are doing and how accurate you need it to be,
but most of the exceptionally
> photo realistic stuff is never done in an editor, precisely for these
reasons. I would say it is good for
> A) learning how a lot of POV stuff works and B) making stuff where you
don't need precise control of
> the result, but I believe it does have a few serious flaws.
>
> However, that said it is a 'lot' easier to design something graphically
than by hand and some things like
> positioning 50 columns in a circle in a room, correctly handling animation
using IK and some other
> stuff are easier to handle in Moray instead of directly coding them. Like
anything it is a useful tool,
> but when it stops being useful, you stop using it. ;)
>
> As to the questions of 'how much is done in it' and 'is it smiled or
frowned upon' I would say 'I have
> no real idea' and 'both, depending on who you talk too'.
>
>

Post a reply to this message

Depending on what I'm doing, I may be building anywhere from 10% to
90% of my scene in Moray.  I generally use it to assemble the scene
(placing lights, cameras, positioning objects, and such), and for
those things it is good at, like basic CSG and rapidly trying out many
different textures.  I'll use other tools for whatever purpose they
excel at (such as HamaPatch for patches), and tweak the .pov file by
hand before the final render.

For example, look at my two IRTC entries.  My first one ("orrery" in
the "Worlds Within Worlds" round) is towards the 80% - 90% end of the
scale.  It was almost entirely made with CSG in Moray, except for the
sky sphere and trees, which were done by hand as separate .inc files.
My second entry ("dhracer" in the recent "Winter" round) was about 10%
Moray.  It was almost entirely built in Hamapatch and only
assembled/textured in Moray, with the sky sphere and motion blur being
done by hand after exporting the .pov file.

---
Bob Chmilnitzky (a.k.a. Jet Jaguar)
I have a spam blocking address.  Replying to me is like pulling teeth.
Visit my crappy home page at http://home.att.net/~chmilnir/
MSTie #54297

Crossposting makes Baby Jesus cry.

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On Fri, 24 May 2002 22:23:11 -0400, "Timothy R. Cook" <z99### [at] bellsouthnet> wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
> > There is absolutely no way to produce a model by scaling and
> > rotating something like a cylinder that will 'ever' be as
> > accurate as specifying the end points directly and I gave
> > up trying. Sadly a box can't be defined that way in
> > either the SDL or Moray, so some limitations still
> > exist either way, but they are imho worse in Moray. 
> 
> I dunno, I almost never position stuff by moving it around
> with the mouse; I use the xyz input boxes, occasioanlly
> fudging around when moray's precision runs out.  But as
> far as I can tell, it is quite easy to accurately specify
> end points for objects, or at least the centre of the
> object and figure out everything else using calculator.
> 

Hmm. This is true. I 'never' use the mouse to position stuff, but if I am going to use
a calculator then
why bother using Moray in the first place. In general there is no easy way to 'draw' a
blue print in
Moray and work off it, so I end up drawing the blueprint on normal paper. making
measurements
and calculations by hand and then I can put it into Moray where I don't have as good
of control or
enter the values directly in the SDL. There are times I will use it if simply playing
with ideas, but I don't
personally consider it to be the best way to do much of anything. The two things it
has going for it are
support of POVRay primatives and direct (if not, do to the slightly difference
cordinate system it uses,
100% compatible) export of POVRay SDL. In most other respects it falls a little short
of the majority of
other programs out there in many ways. I imagine that the nexxt version with 3.5
compatibility will be
an improvement, but in general Moray has been continuously behind the curve of even
POVRay
itself, which is a little annoying, since I would really like to be able to really use
the  program. For most
uses it is fairly good, but it does have flaws and several of those have been stated
as 'never to be
fixed', like the goofy non-POVRay coordinate system that makes the normal SDL and
Moray exported ones
completely inconsistant. This is unfortunately the price we pay for not having a
'integrated' editor with
POVRay and no huge company developing it, but it shouldn't have to be. There is a
point where
having one special tool to build the main model, one to do nurbs, one for organics,
one for splines,
etc., etc., etc. starts to produce more frustration than benefit, especially if you
can't find half the
bloody tools. ;) lol

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> like the goofy non-POVRay coordinate system that makes the
> normal SDL and Moray exported ones completely inconsistant.

I'm sorry, but I think right-hand coordinate makes FAR more
sense than left-hand, mostly because a) I'm right-handed, b)
it's what all the CAD packages out there use, and I've used
AutoSketch longer than I've used POV, and CAD packages work
from the concept of doing a floorplan which uses XY, and Z
is the elevation.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com
mirror: http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/z/9/z993126

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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3cee55ca$1@news.povray.org...
> I know alot of the POV People like to do everything in POV..

In these newsgroups you'll find a lot of people who do so... and are
incredible (JRG, Jaime Vives, H.E. Day...  take a look and you'll be amazed)

> How much of the stuff that I see in pov is done in Moray?

Talking for me, all is made with moray, only the "organic" part is made with
hamapatch (or Poser), and even those objects are always imported in moray to
make the final scene. Once every model is made, placed, lightened and
textured it's time to make the final adjustments in pov editor (radiosity,
media, photons ...). In my current IRTC WIP I'm using the "include" feature
to have total control over some objects that are in pov format (UV meshes,
some media, macros, a skysphere) and works fine.

> I'm thinking about using moray to model a few things.. and wondered in the
> Pov community..

I think it's a great choice.

> Is the program smiled or frowned upon?

Never had a problem with that.

Txemi Jendrix
tji### [at] euskalnetnet
http://www.geocities.com/txemijendrix

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Thanks for your response.. :)

I appreciate you taking the time.. What I 've found out about moray is that
I have a hard time working with and placing objects.. like in POV I have a
object that has a union of a merg and two differences.. :) I Dunno if Moray
can get that detailed.. :

Anyway.. I'm going to try and do some of the Moray Tutorials and see how I
like it..

Dave
"Txemi Jendrix" <tji### [at] euskalnetnet> wrote in message
news:3cf13813@news.povray.org...

noticias
> 3cee55ca$1@news.povray.org...
> > I know alot of the POV People like to do everything in POV..
>
> In these newsgroups you'll find a lot of people who do so... and are
> incredible (JRG, Jaime Vives, H.E. Day...  take a look and you'll be
amazed)
>
> > How much of the stuff that I see in pov is done in Moray?
>
> Talking for me, all is made with moray, only the "organic" part is made
with
> hamapatch (or Poser), and even those objects are always imported in moray
to
> make the final scene. Once every model is made, placed, lightened and
> textured it's time to make the final adjustments in pov editor (radiosity,
> media, photons ...). In my current IRTC WIP I'm using the "include"
feature
> to have total control over some objects that are in pov format (UV meshes,
> some media, macros, a skysphere) and works fine.
>
> > I'm thinking about using moray to model a few things.. and wondered in
the
> > Pov community..
>
> I think it's a great choice.
>
> > Is the program smiled or frowned upon?
>
> Never had a problem with that.
>
> Txemi Jendrix
> tji### [at] euskalnetnet
> http://www.geocities.com/txemijendrix
>
>
>

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