I tested Warp's Mesh Compressor and I find it very useful for large
Meshes (produced by LParser).
It would be useful to create a sourrounding scene with Moray. But since
Moray can't handle PCM-Files I have to tweak the resulting code by hand.
I would highly appreciate the capability to handle PCM objects just like
UDO objects.

Any suggestions?

Karl

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Karl Pelzer wrote:
> 
> I tested Warp's Mesh Compressor and I find it very useful for large
> Meshes (produced by LParser).
> It would be useful to create a sourrounding scene with Moray. But since
> Moray can't handle PCM-Files I have to tweak the resulting code by hand.
> I would highly appreciate the capability to handle PCM objects just like
> UDO objects.
> 
> Any suggestions?

The only potential problem I would see would be edge & vertex memory
usage. Remember that the point of an UDO is to provide the minimum
needed detail to place the object and leave the bulk of the triangle
data in the INC file. If a file needs to be compressed into a PCM,
it's probably quite huge to begin with, so reading it directly into
Moray would sharply raise the edge and vertex memory requirements, 
and really clutter your screen with unnecessary wireframe data. Also, 
if you went on to use any of the hair growth or deformation features, 
that would increase the complexity of the model yet again.

It might be better if this feature were added to Thomas Baier's
3DWin. That is, to convert an PCM file into an UDO/INC pair (where 
the INC file contains a call to the mesh reading macro as part of a 
#declare. That would leave you with a reasonably sized UDO, but still 
enable the use of PCMs directly with Moray scenes.

Charles

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Charles wrote:
> 
> The only potential problem I would see would be edge & vertex memory
> usage. Remember that the point of an UDO is to provide the minimum
> needed detail to place the object and leave the bulk of the triangle
> data in the INC file. If a file needs to be compressed into a PCM,
> it's probably quite huge to begin with, so reading it directly into
> Moray would sharply raise the edge and vertex memory requirements,
> and really clutter your screen with unnecessary wireframe data. Also,
> if you went on to use any of the hair growth or deformation features,
> that would increase the complexity of the model yet again.
> 
> It might be better if this feature were added to Thomas Baier's
> 3DWin. That is, to convert an PCM file into an UDO/INC pair (where
> the INC file contains a call to the mesh reading macro as part of a
> #declare. That would leave you with a reasonably sized UDO, but still
> enable the use of PCMs directly with Moray scenes.
> 
> Charles

I'm not thinking about Chris Colefax Mesh Macros, it is far too complex
to handle.
But I think there is no difference if I have the same 2 meg object as a
UDO file for Moray and replace it in the povray script with my 1 meg PCM
file.
The amount of triangles for moray is the same. I just want that moray
can read PCM files (and of course blowing a 1 meg PCM object to a 2 meg
internal moray object) and write povray scenes wich include the PCM
files.

Hope you kow what I mean .?

Karl

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Karl Pelzer wrote:
> I'm not thinking about Chris Colefax Mesh Macros, it is far too complex
> to handle.
> But I think there is no difference if I have the same 2 meg object as a
> UDO file for Moray and replace it in the povray script with my 1 meg PCM
> file.
> The amount of triangles for moray is the same. I just want that moray
> can read PCM files (and of course blowing a 1 meg PCM object to a 2 meg
> internal moray object) and write povray scenes wich include the PCM
> files.
> 
> Hope you kow what I mean .?
> 

I think I understand. But here's the trouble: the PCM _files_ are 
smaller, but the mesh is not. The great thing about PCM files is 
simply that they store the triangle data on disk in the most 
efficient manner possible. But even if you don't use the deformation 
macros, POV stores the triangle data the same when when you use 
read_mesh() to load a PCM file, so if the number of triangles are 
the same, they will need the same amount of memory during render. 

Meanwhile, an UDO is not meant to be the same size as the mesh it
represents. For example, I have had UDOs which are anywhere from
1/8th to 1/20th the size of the mesh they pointed to, because an
UDO doesn't have a wireframe triangle for every triangle in the 
mesh... just enough to see the outline of the shape. So yes, if
you load the PCM into Moray, it will take very much more memory
than the UDO, and, at the same time, when it exports to POV-Ray,
there will be no savings there either.

Now, what I see happening with 3DWin (in my last post) is this:
3DWin would...
1.) Read in the PCM file
2.) Build a Moray UDO to represent it, just as it would for any
    other 3D format
3.) Create an INC file which contains a call to the PCM, the
    same as you currently invoke them in POV. In other words,
    if you have a PCM mesh called "mymesh.pcm", the INC file 
    would simply read...

#ifndef(read_mesh)
     #include "pcm.mcr"
#end
#declare MyMesh =
object {
      read_mesh("mymesh.pcm")
}

So "MyMesh" is now a declared object, which an UDO could 
reference as with any other kind of mesh. Now you would have
an UDO (so Moray doesn't have to use as much wireframe) and
a PCM (so the mesh doesn't take up as much space or take as
long to load or send over the internet or whatever). It would
be the best of both worlds.

In fact, since the INC file is so simple, you could do this
now, assuming only that you started with something 3DWin can
read. You would just convert it to UDO/INC pair, use the
mesh compressor on the INC file, and then write a replacement
INC file as above. But when all you have is the PCM file,
I think it would be helpful if 3DWin could read these directly.

Charles

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Charles <cfu### [at] enternet> wrote:
: In fact, since the INC file is so simple, you could do this
: now, assuming only that you started with something 3DWin can
: read. You would just convert it to UDO/INC pair, use the
: mesh compressor on the INC file, and then write a replacement
: INC file as above. But when all you have is the PCM file,
: I think it would be helpful if 3DWin could read these directly.

  Another possibility would be that I added an output type that 3DWin
supports to the mesh compressor.
  Which type is the best and easiest to implement? Perhaps the raw format?

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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Nieminen Juha wrote:
>   Another possibility would be that I added an output type that 3DWin
> supports to the mesh compressor.
>   Which type is the best and easiest to implement? Perhaps the raw format?

Yes, that would work just as well! Raw format is probably the
easiest choice to work with, and it has all the characteristics 
that 3DWin would need to construct an UDO, including the ability 
to preserve individual components of multiple part models. Since 
one would already have the PCM file, the user would only need
write a handful of lines to an INC file to complete the process.
That would be a very helpful additional feature!

Charles

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Charles wrote:
> So "MyMesh" is now a declared object, which an UDO could
> reference as with any other kind of mesh. Now you would have
> an UDO (so Moray doesn't have to use as much wireframe) and
> a PCM (so the mesh doesn't take up as much space or take as
> long to load or send over the internet or whatever). It would
> be the best of both worlds.
> 
> In fact, since the INC file is so simple, you could do this
> now, assuming only that you started with something 3DWin can
> read. You would just convert it to UDO/INC pair, use the
> mesh compressor on the INC file, and then write a replacement
> INC file as above. But when all you have is the PCM file,
> I think it would be helpful if 3DWin could read these directly.
> 
> Charles

I agree. I didn't think about manipulatiging the INC file of the UDO/INC
pair. Good idea. But as you wrote, support by 3DWin would make it
easier.

Karl

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I don't know anything about the raw format. Any info?

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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Nieminen Juha wrote:
> 
>   I don't know anything about the raw format. Any info?

The raw format is the simplest 3d format in the world and is in fact very
similar to the POV-Ray triangle only it is missing the punctuation.

A pov triangle looks like this -

triangle{<1,2,3>,<4,5,6>,<7,8,9>}

in raw format it looks like this -

1 2 3  4 5 6  7 8 9

3DWin can also read smooth raw triangles in the same format as above
if you add the smoothing control vectors.

-- 
Ken Tyler -  1300+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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How do I specify that the triangle is smooth? How do I specify the number
of triangles?

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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