hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:32:24 -0400, jr wrote:
> ...
> > and if you're alluding to SARS-Cov-2, re-read the thread.  the
> > "pandemic" cannot be blamed for sitting on the Moray source for thirteen
> > plus years.
>
> And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when
> people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.
>
> Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project team.

hmm.  personally, I know of _v_ small "project team"s, ie individuals, who have
managed, besides living their personal lives, to create, for instance, a fully
standards compliant C compiler, in significantly fewer than thirteen years.

(for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray looms)

> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> >
> > <http://news.povray.org/web.5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>
>
> Fair enough.

very gracious, I'm sure.  (the withdrawn "a telling" was .. telling, also, or so
I think.  :-))

> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely
> observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them,
> and set their priorities as they see fit.
>
> They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if you
> rant and complain to get action.

uh, this is about me now?  (if you can't play the ball, play the man?)


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 15:37:46 -0400, jr wrote:

>> And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when
>> people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.
>>
>> Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project
>> team.
> 
> hmm.  personally, I know of _v_ small "project team"s, ie individuals,
> who have managed, besides living their personal lives, to create, for
> instance, a fully standards compliant C compiler, in significantly fewer
> than thirteen years.

Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms that 
other people live their lives by.

> (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray looms)

Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't 
contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people who 
have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm not 
willing or able to step up and contribute to.

>> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
>> >
>> > <http://news.povray.org/web.
5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>
>>
>> Fair enough.
> 
> very gracious, I'm sure.  (the withdrawn "a telling" was .. telling,
> also, or so I think.  :-))

Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my 
newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.

>> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely
>> observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them,
>> and set their priorities as they see fit.
>>
>> They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if
>> you rant and complain to get action.
> 
> uh, this is about me now?  (if you can't play the ball, play the man?)

I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of 
development and throwing blame around.

The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting 
together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to 
motivate people to do what you want them to do.

It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've 
been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while he's 
being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I don't 
appreciate people being dicks to my friends.

I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off Moray 
to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting this 
code reviewed and made available?".

If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're being 
a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult enough to own 
the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a window.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 7/21/20 2:36 PM, jr wrote:
> hi,
> 
> Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:
>> On 7/21/20 6:48 AM, jr wrote:
>>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>>>> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
>>>>> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
>>>>> disposition, do not read on.
>>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
>>>> helped with a bit of serious information, ...
>>>
>>> tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other guys on
>>> our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "... Ill be posting
>>> another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no followups.
>>>
>>> ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
>>> in the long grass)
>>
>> well if it makes any difference...there HAS been some discussion about
>> the task at hand, and i think (from what i can tell) it's not going to
>> be the task...rather finding someone with the right skill set to get it
>> done.
> 
> future code development isn't the only .. concern, but thanks for the update.

against my better judgement i'm going to ask... what /else/ could you 
possibly be talking about!?!

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 15:37:46 -0400, jr wrote:
>
> >> And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when
> >> people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.
> >>
> >> Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project
> >> team.
> >
> > hmm.  personally, I know of _v_ small "project team"s, ie individuals,
> > who have managed, besides living their personal lives, to create, for
> > instance, a fully standards compliant C compiler, in significantly fewer
> > than thirteen years.
>
> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms that
> other people live their lives by.

there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think I am
trying to tell anyone how to their life?

wrt the above, I simply point out that while some small teams, right down to the
smallest, manage to .. get on, that is not the case with POV-Ray, alas.  (or so
it seems)

> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray looms)
>
> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people who
> have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm not
> willing or able to step up and contribute to.

eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even github,
more than just a select few could have at least have a look at the .. task at
hand.

> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> >> >
> >> > <http://news.povray.org/web.
> 5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>
> >>
> >> Fair enough.
> >
> > very gracious, I'm sure.  (the withdrawn "a telling" was .. telling,
> > also, or so I think.  :-))
>
> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.

thanks.

and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the news
server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main website.  so why
then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the news section so .. not news?
surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have sometime
in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0 alphas?  (I mean,
seriously, how many minutes would one need writing ~150 words?)

> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely
> >> observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them,
> >> and set their priorities as they see fit.
> >>
> >> They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if
> >> you rant and complain to get action.
> >
> > uh, this is about me now?  (if you can't play the ball, play the man?)
>
> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
> development and throwing blame around.
>
> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
>
> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.

no one's asking "for an update".  have you even read the initial "rant"?

>  You've
> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while he's
> being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I don't
> appreciate people being dicks to my friends.
>
> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off Moray
> to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting this
> code reviewed and made available?".

no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not the first
to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.

> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're being
> a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult enough to own
> the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a window.

directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this develop
in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the s/ware I've grown
fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned now, because days turn
into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet, no real attempt at
communicating the context.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:
> On 7/21/20 2:36 PM, jr wrote:
> >>> ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
> >>> in the long grass)
> >>
> >> well if it makes any difference...there HAS been some discussion about
> >> the task at hand, and i think (from what i can tell) it's not going to
> >> be the task...rather finding someone with the right skill set to get it
> >> done.
> >
> > future code development isn't the only .. concern, but thanks for the update.
>
> against my better judgement i'm going to ask... what /else/ could you
> possibly be talking about!?!

selection: website maintenance; answers to questions like "why don't we have an
official IRC channel?" and "why isn't the Moray source somewhere the public has
access?"; "community", that talk posted by ingo touched on some points.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:

>> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms
>> that other people live their lives by.
> 
> there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think
> I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?

The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and 
essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get some 
work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming 
across).

> wrt the above, I simply point out that while some small teams, right
> down to the smallest, manage to .. get on, that is not the case with
> POV-Ray, alas.  (or so it seems)

ie, you're stating your expectation that the developers get to work on 
the future of POV-Ray, and trying to apply pressure to do something.

You don't get to do that.  You're not their boss.

>> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
>> > looms)
>>
>> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
>> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people
>> who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm
>> not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
> 
> eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
> github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look at
> the .. task at hand.

And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code 
*can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that 
needs to be scrubbed.

But it's easier to bitch than to review the information that's already 
out there in order to understand.

>> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
>> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the
> news server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main
> website.  so why then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the
> news section so .. not news?

I don't have admin privileges for the news server or the wiki (any 
more).  I helped get the wiki set up, but life got busy, and I handed off 
to someone else.

> surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have
> sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0
> alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need writing
> ~150 words?)

You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply 
aren't true.

>> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
>> development and throwing blame around.
>>
>> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
>> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
>> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
>>
>> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.
> 
> no one's asking "for an update".  have you even read the initial "rant"?

I did.  And if you had just asked for an update as to what's going on, we 
wouldn't be having this discussion.

But instead, you posted a whiny rant bitching about the lack of progress 
on all things pov-ray.

>> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
>> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
>> this code reviewed and made available?".
> 
> no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not
> the first to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.

From your rant:

"then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
(hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and the
financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)"

That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's whining, 
plain and simple.

"What's the latest on Moray?" - that's inquiring about the status of that 
code.

> 
>> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're
>> being a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult
>> enough to own the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a
>> window.
> 
> directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this
> develop in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the
> s/ware I've grown fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned
> now, because days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet,
> no real attempt at communicating the context.

So maybe ask a question instead of whining and bitching about various 
aspects that aren't moving to your personal satisfaction.  Don't be a 
dick about it, be respectful of the fact that people have lives, and you 
don't know what they're doing.

You weren't direct.  You were just plain rude.

You aren't letting this "develop in to a .. slanging match" - you started 
by slinging shit.  You don't get to walk away and pretend you didn't try 
to start something here.

I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a 
really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years 
back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own 
limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities 
in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here 
stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this 
software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to 
help.

You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick out 
a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then instead 
of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in which you 
might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping promote it.  
Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that are broken 
don't remain so.

But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless, 
pointless, and downright rude.
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms that
> other people live their lives by.

If only the world of People held to that when they voted.  :|

> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.

To be fair, I think that's a more difficult proposition than it seems.   It's
like throwing a resume out into the job market.
Personalities aside, I think that the core issue is still that no one knows who
is responsible for what, and it's hard to grasp what can and needs to be done
when one is not privy to things discussed by "the dev team" and other groups
with various designations.
When there are difficulties, it is easy to deflect any and all discussion by
painting someone as [merely] "a complainer".  Or to ignore them, or simply
maintain radio silence.
"What you allow, is what will continue."
Perhaps jr is being "disagreeable," but that doesn't invalidate any of his
points, and it is perhaps, what is needed.  If POV-Ray was a company, it would
be sensible to listen to and consider the customer's [user's] concerns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXo1aFb8MY


> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.
On the flipside, one might say that being patient won't either.

> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
> development and throwing blame around.

Would it help if they did?
Does it matter that jr IS?
I mean, sometimes it's just a matter of damned if you do, and damned if you
don't.
We can discuss 1. people, 2. events, or 3. IDEAS.
We can leave jr completely out of this, and still address the issues he raises.

> .... putting
> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
> motivate people to do what you want them to do.

No, but the 12-steppers would say that the first step to fixing things is
recognizing that you have a problem.   Whether you like they way they tell you
or not is - from a POV-Ray development standpoint - irrelevant.
There have been plenty of people here, over the years, who have shoved my nose
in the pile of code that I've deposited on the carpet, and metaphorically beat
me with the rolled up newspaper until the answers began to glimmer through the
thinner parts of my thick skull.
Polite?  Tactful?  Probably not.
Effective?   Seemed to be.
I've made it this far, and don't tend to ask _as many_ completely idiotic
questions.

> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've
> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while he's
> being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I don't
> appreciate people being dicks to my friends.

Maybe he's "being a dick", and maybe he's not.
Maybe he's old and cranky and cantankerous, and having a bad blood-sugar day, or
it's hot and muggy, and he ran out of both coffee and patience.
But he is being assertive and trying to keep this on the front burner.
If he was a boss or a supervisor (whose underlings generally consider them
dicks) he'd "just be doing his job."
Sooner or later, someone is going to come by with a sword and take a mighty
swing at the Gordian Knot.
It seems to me that jr might simply be willing to volunteer to be the "lightning
rod" that others aren't willing to be.
A rule of thumb in complaints and customer service is that for every complaint,
there are 300 others just like it that haven't been communicated.

> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off Moray
> to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting this
> code reviewed and made available?".

My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have the
code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it proprietary or
whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're being
> a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult enough to own
> the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a window.

Regardless of his level of impatience or tact, I would respectfully submit that
the issues raised still stand on their own, and so perhaps we can pretend that
Princess Penelope Petunia batted her eyelashes and curtsied while demurely
asking that a teensy favor of hers be granted.

Also, in all fairness, he / we were promised an answer/response, and jr seems to
be abiding by the Russian proverb - an admonition to "trust, but verify."

The world is full of plenty of dicks who don't want to answer questions "because
of the tone that they were asked in", even when it's in every way proper to hold
them accountable.  Damned citizen taxpayers being jerks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99IeGqIIHj4

So - let's not be THAT way either.

Now, ruffled feathers or not, there are still some of us sitting out here in the
Peanut Gallery who are interested in answers, information, history, opinions,
and other levels and forms of discussion on the topics raised about POV-Ray, and
Moray.

Please, and a preemptive Thank You.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
> ...
> > there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think
> > I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?
>
> The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and
> essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get some
> work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming
> across).

stagnation, yes, and not confined to development.  and yes, I aired my
"perceived grievances".

> ...
> >> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
> >> > looms)
> >>
> >> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
> >> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people
> >> who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm
> >> not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
> >
> > eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
> > github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look at
> > the .. task at hand.
>
> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
> *can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
> needs to be scrubbed.

_parts_ of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been worked on,
and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code could not
have been published.

and no, personally I could not contribute to a C++ code base, however, I, as I'm
sure are others, would be prepared to contribute via some type of subscription
model, to fund the odd "journey man", for instance.

> ...
> > surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have
> > sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0
> > alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need writing
> > ~150 words?)
>
> You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply
> aren't true.

I assume that, even in a small team of volunteers (and even if all of those
volunteers were single parents), within a time frame of a good two years,
_someone_ will find five minutes to  write a piece, and a further five minutes
to update the website, to "announce" the 3.8.0 alpha(s).  are you telling me I'm
(completely) wrong?

> ...
> >> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
> >> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
> >> this code reviewed and made available?".
> >
> > no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not
> > the first to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.
>
> From your rant:
>
> "then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
> how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
> (hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and the
> financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)"
>
> That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's whining,
> plain and simple.

rant, whining, same thing.  as advertised.  I've addressed "Moray" above, and
see nothing wrong with .. venting frustration when "things get kicked in the
long grass" for years on end.

> ...
> > directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this
> > develop in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the
> > s/ware I've grown fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned
> > now, because days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet,
> > no real attempt at communicating the context.
>
> So maybe ask a question instead of whining and bitching about various
> aspects that aren't moving to your personal satisfaction.  Don't be a
> dick about it, be respectful of the fact that people have lives, and you
> don't know what they're doing.
>
> You weren't direct.  You were just plain rude.
>
> You aren't letting this "develop in to a .. slanging match" - you started
> by slinging shit.  You don't get to walk away and pretend you didn't try
> to start something here.
>
> I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a
> really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years
> back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own
> limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities
> in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here
> stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this
> software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to
> help.

so where then is the wiki or wherever page which lists the things "to do"?
where is the out-reach to community asking for specific help on this or that?
in order to offer help, it would help (pun intended) to know of specific
outstanding tasks/issues.  can you even point to any ng post in the last, uh,
four years or so, where you, or a member of the mysterious TAG, has asked for
help with anything?

> You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick out
> a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then instead
> of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in which you
> might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping promote it.
> Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that are broken
> don't remain so.

just seeing that news-which-isn't section of the website suggests that dead
links, for example, if reported, would be addressed with the same .. alacrity?
(if no one in the whole POV-Ray "team" found time in the last two years to write
a 3.8.0 item, what chance they'd find time updating the links section?)

as for the "head is ill" analogy, I think that the talk posted by ingo made good
points about how "maintainers" can create environments where cooperation is
productive; part of it is communicating the "broad brush strokes", and I see no
evidence of even that.

(and if I had the technical know-how to set up and maintain an IRC channel, for
instance, don't you think I'd have one on the go already?)

> But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless,
> pointless, and downright rude.

not sure about "pointless", unless you're happy with the .. status quo, as to
"completely useless", likely, that's the thing about "inertia".  and rudeness,
well, my rant was written to provoke a (long overdue, imo) look at the "now" --
where does POV-Ray go from here.  so far I hear a lot of criticism in response
to my critique, but not a single real answer.  (the whole "atmosphere" strikes
me as one like a big family gathering, when a child asks "where's uncle X?" and
every adult looks at one another, stricken faces, and then one will give an
"answer" that isn't any)


regards, jr.

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On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:38:32 -0400, Bald Eagle wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms
>> that other people live their lives by.
> 
> If only the world of People held to that when they voted.  :|

This isn't a democracy, so that line of thinking really doesn't apply.

>> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> 
> To be fair, I think that's a more difficult proposition than it seems.  
> It's like throwing a resume out into the job market.

He's identified several things that are not coding-related where he could 
step up and offer to assist.  Instead, he bitches about them.

That's not helpful.

> Personalities aside, I think that the core issue is still that no one
> knows who is responsible for what, and it's hard to grasp what can and
> needs to be done when one is not privy to things discussed by "the dev
> team" and other groups with various designations.

That is probably a fair assessment (I wouldn't speak for the pov team).

> When there are difficulties, it is easy to deflect any and all
> discussion by painting someone as [merely] "a complainer".  Or to ignore
> them, or simply maintain radio silence.
> "What you allow, is what will continue."
> Perhaps jr is being "disagreeable," but that doesn't invalidate any of
> his points, and it is perhaps, what is needed.  If POV-Ray was a
> company, it would be sensible to listen to and consider the customer's
> [user's] concerns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXo1aFb8MY

He's not being merely disagreeable.  He's being rude.

Your reply here is a great example of how to raise concerns without being 
a jerk.  (I for one appreciate that)

>> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.
> On the flipside, one might say that being patient won't either.

Being rude and impatient is quite different than asking questions and 
offering to help.  And yes, he did say he could help, but a vague offer 
of help is less useful than saying, for example, "maybe an IRC channel 
would help?  I could set that up and manage it if that would be of use".

Instead of just musing about that as a possibility.  Sure, it's a 
possibility.  Who does he think is going to say "yeah, I've got time for 
that".  Be part of the solution.

>> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
>> development and throwing blame around.
> 
> Would it help if they did?
> Does it matter that jr IS?
> I mean, sometimes it's just a matter of damned if you do, and damned if
> you don't.
> We can discuss 1. people, 2. events, or 3. IDEAS.
> We can leave jr completely out of this, and still address the issues he
> raises.

Certainly. Some of the issues he raises have merit, certainly.  Being a 
dick about how he raises them makes it a lot less likely he's going to 
get answers.

It is, contrary to seemingly popular opinion, possible to raise questions 
and concerns without being a dick about it.  People do it literally every 
single day.

>> .... putting together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great
>> way to motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> No, but the 12-steppers would say that the first step to fixing things
> is recognizing that you have a problem.   Whether you like they way they
> tell you or not is - from a POV-Ray development standpoint - irrelevant.

Presentation is important - if you want to be heard, present in a way 
that gets people to listen.

Make people defensive, and you're not likely to affect change.

Unless we're talking about a violent overthrow of the pov-ray project.

> There have been plenty of people here, over the years, who have shoved
> my nose in the pile of code that I've deposited on the carpet, and
> metaphorically beat me with the rolled up newspaper until the answers
> began to glimmer through the thinner parts of my thick skull.
> Polite?  Tactful?  Probably not.
> Effective?   Seemed to be.
> I've made it this far, and don't tend to ask _as many_ completely
> idiotic questions.

Which is fine for you.  Ever wonder how it would have worked out if 
people had treated you with respect instead?  I know which I prefer.

>> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've
>> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while
>> he's being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I
>> don't appreciate people being dicks to my friends.
> 
> Maybe he's "being a dick", and maybe he's not.

No, he's being a dick.  No question about it in my mind.

> Maybe he's old and cranky and cantankerous, and having a bad blood-sugar
> day, or it's hot and muggy, and he ran out of both coffee and patience.

Conversation's been going on for 19 days, and his attitude hasn't 
changed.  This isn't a one-off, and he's not apologised for being rude, 
other than the initial warning (which means he *knew* he was being a 
dick, and didn't care enough to rewrite his questions so he wouldn't need 
the disclaimer).

> But he is being assertive and trying to keep this on the front burner.
> If he was a boss or a supervisor (whose underlings generally consider
> them dicks) he'd "just be doing his job."

I am a boss/supervisor, and I can tell you, that is not a great way to 
motivate people if you want them to be loyal to you.

> Sooner or later, someone is going to come by with a sword and take a
> mighty swing at the Gordian Knot.
> It seems to me that jr might simply be willing to volunteer to be the
> "lightning rod" that others aren't willing to be.
> A rule of thumb in complaints and customer service is that for every
> complaint, there are 300 others just like it that haven't been
> communicated.

And if he had simply started by saying "I have some questions about the 
status of the project" and then laid them out without being a dick about 
it, we could've had a productive discussion.

Instead, he was a dick about it, and didn't get answers.  Gee, I wonder 
why?  Could it be that the people who could provide him with answers 
didn't want a second round of being publicly berated by someone who 
"cares about the project" - but not enough to be respectful to the people 
actually in charge of the project?  I know for me, if I were volunteering 
my time to run a project and had not had the time to do it, the last 
thing that would motivate me to respond would be someone referring to me 
as the "ill head", or telling me to pull my thumb out of my ass and DO 
SOMETHING.

I'd be much more inclined to tell them to take a long walk off a short 
pier (and that would have been ME being polite about it).

>> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
>> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
>> this code reviewed and made available?".
> 
> My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have
> the code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it
> proprietary or whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

Yes, that's pretty much where I was as well in my understanding - that 
there were legal issues.  The code was (to my knowledge, based on public 
info) turned over, but that it needed a scrub before it could be made 
public.

Since there are legal issues involved, a lawyer would probably need to be 
involved at some point.

>> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're
>> being a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult
>> enough to own the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a
>> window.
> 
> Regardless of his level of impatience or tact, I would respectfully
> submit that the issues raised still stand on their own, and so perhaps
> we can pretend that Princess Penelope Petunia batted her eyelashes and
> curtsied while demurely asking that a teensy favor of hers be granted.

No, he needs to understand that being rude is not acceptable.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about the issues he raises.  Just that he 
needs to acknowledge his lack of tact.

> Also, in all fairness, he / we were promised an answer/response, and jr
> seems to be abiding by the Russian proverb - an admonition to "trust,
> but verify."

I await those answers as well.  Patiently.  Life right now is not exactly 
straightforward for a lot of people, and we don't know if Chris or others 
whom we're waiting on have had other priorities take over.

> The world is full of plenty of dicks who don't want to answer questions
> "because of the tone that they were asked in", even when it's in every
> way proper to hold them accountable.  Damned citizen taxpayers being
> jerks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99IeGqIIHj4
> 
> So - let's not be THAT way either.

Accountability in open development projects is a bit different than in 
the business world.  I'm sure, though, that you're aware of that.

> 
> Now, ruffled feathers or not, there are still some of us sitting out
> here in the Peanut Gallery who are interested in answers, information,
> history, opinions, and other levels and forms of discussion on the
> topics raised about POV-Ray, and Moray.
> 
> Please, and a preemptive Thank You.

As I said, I'm interested as well in the answers to these questions.  
Were I able to help out, I'd be asking similar questions, but I know what 
my life is like, and I try not to presume about what others' lives entail 
in order to fulfill my needs.

It seems that these questions could all be asked with a modicum of 
respect, and that's all I'm suggesting here.  It's possible to ask hard 
questions without being an ass about it.



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:39:05 -0400, jr wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
>> ...
>> > there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you
>> > think I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?
>>
>> The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and
>> essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get
>> some work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming
>> across).
> 
> stagnation, yes, and not confined to development.  and yes, I aired my
> "perceived grievances".

You engaged in personal attacks against the leaders of the project.  It 
was unnecessary.

>> ...
>> >> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
>> >> > looms)
>> >>
>> >> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
>> >> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize
>> >> people who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something
>> >> that I'm not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
>> >
>> > eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
>> > github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look
>> > at the .. task at hand.
>>
>> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
>> *can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
>> needs to be scrubbed.
> 
> _parts_ of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been
> worked on,
> and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code
> could not have been published.

Not knowing what the code looks like, I couldn't begin to guess how much 
of the code could be shared and how much couldn't.

Could you?

> and no, personally I could not contribute to a C++ code base, however,
> I, as I'm sure are others, would be prepared to contribute via some type
> of subscription model, to fund the odd "journey man", for instance.

So maybe suggest that rather than assuming that people are acting 
maliciously in order to deprive you of access to software you enjoy using.

>> > surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could
>> > have sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the
>> > 3.8.0 alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need
>> > writing ~150 words?)
>>
>> You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply
>> aren't true.
> 
> I assume that, even in a small team of volunteers (and even if all of
> those volunteers were single parents), within a time frame of a good two
> years, _someone_ will find five minutes to  write a piece, and a further
> five minutes to update the website, to "announce" the 3.8.0 alpha(s). 
> are you telling me I'm (completely) wrong?

I'm telling you that you have no knowledge of what is going on in 
peoples' lives.  Being a dick in your inquiries is not exactly going to 
encourage people to give you the answers you want.

Or even, really, to answer you at all.

Ever hear the phrase "you attract more bees with honey than vinegar"?  
That applies.

"Hey, Chris, and POV-Team - I'm interested in knowing what's going on 
with both POV-Ray and Moray.  I'd like to contribute in some way, but am 
not sure how I can.  Can you suggest ways I can help, or things I might 
do to help revive the project?"

Much better than a laundry list of grievances and complaints, telling 
people to "pull their thumbs out of their ..." and describing the project 
in the way in which you did.

>> That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's
>> whining,
>> plain and simple.
> 
> rant, whining, same thing.  as advertised.  I've addressed "Moray"
> above, and see nothing wrong with .. venting frustration when "things
> get kicked in the long grass" for years on end.

Then you fail to understand even the most basic human interaction if you 
expected anything more than a "fine, screw you" response.

>> I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a
>> really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years
>> back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own
>> limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities
>> in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here
>> stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this
>> software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to
>> help.
> 
> so where then is the wiki or wherever page which lists the things "to
> do"? where is the out-reach to community asking for specific help on
> this or that? in order to offer help, it would help (pun intended) to
> know of specific outstanding tasks/issues.  can you even point to any ng
> post in the last, uh, four years or so, where you, or a member of the
> mysterious TAG, has asked for help with anything?

Maybe ask the project leadership that question, respectfully.

I'm not part of the "mysterious TAG" - and am not in a position to ask 
for help with anything on behalf of the project.  I'm another end user, 
just like you.  I just happened to help out briefly with getting the Wiki 
set up.

You again are attributing a role to me which I do not hold, and never 
have held.

Try just asking the project leadership how you can help.  Politely, 
stating what you think you might be able to help with (your rant has some 
good suggestions in it where maybe you COULD help).

>> You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick
>> out a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then
>> instead of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in
>> which you might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping
>> promote it. Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that
>> are broken don't remain so.
> 
> just seeing that news-which-isn't section of the website suggests that
> dead links, for example, if reported, would be addressed with the same
> .. alacrity? (if no one in the whole POV-Ray "team" found time in the
> last two years to write a 3.8.0 item, what chance they'd find time
> updating the links section?)

Well, you certainly could ask how you can help with actually updating the 
links.  But you're so keen to see problems, you're not apparently willing 
to look for ways in which you could be part of the solution.  I'm not 
about to do your thinking for you.

> as for the "head is ill" analogy, I think that the talk posted by ingo
> made good points about how "maintainers" can create environments where
> cooperation is productive; part of it is communicating the "broad brush
> strokes", and I see no evidence of even that.
> 
> (and if I had the technical know-how to set up and maintain an IRC
> channel, for instance, don't you think I'd have one on the go already?)

It seems clear that you wouldn't even take the time to learn, given that 
you're not even willing to consider how you might help (the one question 
about how you could help notwithstanding).  You just want to complain.  
You raise some good questions, in very poor form.

>> But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless,
>> pointless, and downright rude.
> 
> not sure about "pointless", unless you're happy with the .. status quo,
> as to "completely useless", likely, that's the thing about "inertia". 
> and rudeness, well, my rant was written to provoke a (long overdue, imo)
> look at the "now" -- where does POV-Ray go from here.  so far I hear a
> lot of criticism in response to my critique, but not a single real
> answer.  (the whole "atmosphere" strikes me as one like a big family
> gathering, when a child asks "where's uncle X?" and every adult looks at
> one another, stricken faces, and then one will give an "answer" that
> isn't any)

Not happy with the status quo; not in a position to demand that others do 
something, and not in a position to pitch in myself.

If you want answers, try being polite to the people you want answers 
from.  *Genuinely* polite.  Considerate.  Thoughtful.

And consider that other people are dealing with things in their lives 
that you have no idea about, nor are you entitled to know about, so if 
you don't get an answer, don't assume malice, assume it's because people 
genuinely have busy lives.


-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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