On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:39:05 -0400, jr wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
>> ...
>> > there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you
>> > think I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?
>>
>> The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and
>> essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get
>> some work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming
>> across).
> 
> stagnation, yes, and not confined to development.  and yes, I aired my
> "perceived grievances".

You engaged in personal attacks against the leaders of the project.  It 
was unnecessary.

>> ...
>> >> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
>> >> > looms)
>> >>
>> >> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
>> >> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize
>> >> people who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something
>> >> that I'm not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
>> >
>> > eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
>> > github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look
>> > at the .. task at hand.
>>
>> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
>> *can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
>> needs to be scrubbed.
> 
> _parts_ of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been
> worked on,
> and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code
> could not have been published.

Not knowing what the code looks like, I couldn't begin to guess how much 
of the code could be shared and how much couldn't.

Could you?

> and no, personally I could not contribute to a C++ code base, however,
> I, as I'm sure are others, would be prepared to contribute via some type
> of subscription model, to fund the odd "journey man", for instance.

So maybe suggest that rather than assuming that people are acting 
maliciously in order to deprive you of access to software you enjoy using.

>> > surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could
>> > have sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the
>> > 3.8.0 alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need
>> > writing ~150 words?)
>>
>> You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply
>> aren't true.
> 
> I assume that, even in a small team of volunteers (and even if all of
> those volunteers were single parents), within a time frame of a good two
> years, _someone_ will find five minutes to  write a piece, and a further
> five minutes to update the website, to "announce" the 3.8.0 alpha(s). 
> are you telling me I'm (completely) wrong?

I'm telling you that you have no knowledge of what is going on in 
peoples' lives.  Being a dick in your inquiries is not exactly going to 
encourage people to give you the answers you want.

Or even, really, to answer you at all.

Ever hear the phrase "you attract more bees with honey than vinegar"?  
That applies.

"Hey, Chris, and POV-Team - I'm interested in knowing what's going on 
with both POV-Ray and Moray.  I'd like to contribute in some way, but am 
not sure how I can.  Can you suggest ways I can help, or things I might 
do to help revive the project?"

Much better than a laundry list of grievances and complaints, telling 
people to "pull their thumbs out of their ..." and describing the project 
in the way in which you did.

>> That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's
>> whining,
>> plain and simple.
> 
> rant, whining, same thing.  as advertised.  I've addressed "Moray"
> above, and see nothing wrong with .. venting frustration when "things
> get kicked in the long grass" for years on end.

Then you fail to understand even the most basic human interaction if you 
expected anything more than a "fine, screw you" response.

>> I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a
>> really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years
>> back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own
>> limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities
>> in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here
>> stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this
>> software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to
>> help.
> 
> so where then is the wiki or wherever page which lists the things "to
> do"? where is the out-reach to community asking for specific help on
> this or that? in order to offer help, it would help (pun intended) to
> know of specific outstanding tasks/issues.  can you even point to any ng
> post in the last, uh, four years or so, where you, or a member of the
> mysterious TAG, has asked for help with anything?

Maybe ask the project leadership that question, respectfully.

I'm not part of the "mysterious TAG" - and am not in a position to ask 
for help with anything on behalf of the project.  I'm another end user, 
just like you.  I just happened to help out briefly with getting the Wiki 
set up.

You again are attributing a role to me which I do not hold, and never 
have held.

Try just asking the project leadership how you can help.  Politely, 
stating what you think you might be able to help with (your rant has some 
good suggestions in it where maybe you COULD help).

>> You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick
>> out a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then
>> instead of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in
>> which you might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping
>> promote it. Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that
>> are broken don't remain so.
> 
> just seeing that news-which-isn't section of the website suggests that
> dead links, for example, if reported, would be addressed with the same
> .. alacrity? (if no one in the whole POV-Ray "team" found time in the
> last two years to write a 3.8.0 item, what chance they'd find time
> updating the links section?)

Well, you certainly could ask how you can help with actually updating the 
links.  But you're so keen to see problems, you're not apparently willing 
to look for ways in which you could be part of the solution.  I'm not 
about to do your thinking for you.

> as for the "head is ill" analogy, I think that the talk posted by ingo
> made good points about how "maintainers" can create environments where
> cooperation is productive; part of it is communicating the "broad brush
> strokes", and I see no evidence of even that.
> 
> (and if I had the technical know-how to set up and maintain an IRC
> channel, for instance, don't you think I'd have one on the go already?)

It seems clear that you wouldn't even take the time to learn, given that 
you're not even willing to consider how you might help (the one question 
about how you could help notwithstanding).  You just want to complain.  
You raise some good questions, in very poor form.

>> But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless,
>> pointless, and downright rude.
> 
> not sure about "pointless", unless you're happy with the .. status quo,
> as to "completely useless", likely, that's the thing about "inertia". 
> and rudeness, well, my rant was written to provoke a (long overdue, imo)
> look at the "now" -- where does POV-Ray go from here.  so far I hear a
> lot of criticism in response to my critique, but not a single real
> answer.  (the whole "atmosphere" strikes me as one like a big family
> gathering, when a child asks "where's uncle X?" and every adult looks at
> one another, stricken faces, and then one will give an "answer" that
> isn't any)

Not happy with the status quo; not in a position to demand that others do 
something, and not in a position to pitch in myself.

If you want answers, try being polite to the people you want answers 
from.  *Genuinely* polite.  Considerate.  Thoughtful.

And consider that other people are dealing with things in their lives 
that you have no idea about, nor are you entitled to know about, so if 
you don't get an answer, don't assume malice, assume it's because people 
genuinely have busy lives.


-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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