hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
> ...
> > there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think
> > I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?
>
> The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and
> essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get some
> work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming
> across).

stagnation, yes, and not confined to development.  and yes, I aired my
"perceived grievances".

> ...
> >> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
> >> > looms)
> >>
> >> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
> >> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people
> >> who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm
> >> not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
> >
> > eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
> > github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look at
> > the .. task at hand.
>
> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
> *can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
> needs to be scrubbed.

_parts_ of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been worked on,
and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code could not
have been published.

and no, personally I could not contribute to a C++ code base, however, I, as I'm
sure are others, would be prepared to contribute via some type of subscription
model, to fund the odd "journey man", for instance.

> ...
> > surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have
> > sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0
> > alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need writing
> > ~150 words?)
>
> You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply
> aren't true.

I assume that, even in a small team of volunteers (and even if all of those
volunteers were single parents), within a time frame of a good two years,
_someone_ will find five minutes to  write a piece, and a further five minutes
to update the website, to "announce" the 3.8.0 alpha(s).  are you telling me I'm
(completely) wrong?

> ...
> >> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
> >> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
> >> this code reviewed and made available?".
> >
> > no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not
> > the first to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.
>
> From your rant:
>
> "then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
> how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
> (hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and the
> financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)"
>
> That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's whining,
> plain and simple.

rant, whining, same thing.  as advertised.  I've addressed "Moray" above, and
see nothing wrong with .. venting frustration when "things get kicked in the
long grass" for years on end.

> ...
> > directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this
> > develop in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the
> > s/ware I've grown fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned
> > now, because days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet,
> > no real attempt at communicating the context.
>
> So maybe ask a question instead of whining and bitching about various
> aspects that aren't moving to your personal satisfaction.  Don't be a
> dick about it, be respectful of the fact that people have lives, and you
> don't know what they're doing.
>
> You weren't direct.  You were just plain rude.
>
> You aren't letting this "develop in to a .. slanging match" - you started
> by slinging shit.  You don't get to walk away and pretend you didn't try
> to start something here.
>
> I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a
> really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years
> back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own
> limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities
> in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here
> stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this
> software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to
> help.

so where then is the wiki or wherever page which lists the things "to do"?
where is the out-reach to community asking for specific help on this or that?
in order to offer help, it would help (pun intended) to know of specific
outstanding tasks/issues.  can you even point to any ng post in the last, uh,
four years or so, where you, or a member of the mysterious TAG, has asked for
help with anything?

> You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick out
> a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then instead
> of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in which you
> might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping promote it.
> Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that are broken
> don't remain so.

just seeing that news-which-isn't section of the website suggests that dead
links, for example, if reported, would be addressed with the same .. alacrity?
(if no one in the whole POV-Ray "team" found time in the last two years to write
a 3.8.0 item, what chance they'd find time updating the links section?)

as for the "head is ill" analogy, I think that the talk posted by ingo made good
points about how "maintainers" can create environments where cooperation is
productive; part of it is communicating the "broad brush strokes", and I see no
evidence of even that.

(and if I had the technical know-how to set up and maintain an IRC channel, for
instance, don't you think I'd have one on the go already?)

> But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless,
> pointless, and downright rude.

not sure about "pointless", unless you're happy with the .. status quo, as to
"completely useless", likely, that's the thing about "inertia".  and rudeness,
well, my rant was written to provoke a (long overdue, imo) look at the "now" --
where does POV-Ray go from here.  so far I hear a lot of criticism in response
to my critique, but not a single real answer.  (the whole "atmosphere" strikes
me as one like a big family gathering, when a child asks "where's uncle X?" and
every adult looks at one another, stricken faces, and then one will give an
"answer" that isn't any)


regards, jr.

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