Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I see two possibilities:
>
> - Everybody else on the Internet is an asshole.

www.youtube.com

 - Ricky

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"alphaQuad" <alp### [at] earthlinknet> wrote in message

   Lol @ the subject aQ. "C'mon, stick'em up... stick'em up..."


> Have you EVER loved anyone?

    This is totally irrelevent.


> Ever cared for anyone?

      Irrelevent.


> More importantly has anyone ever cared for you?

     And irrelevent.


> ANSWER the question, DONT troll and DON'T derail the question.
> I'd bet money on "NO" to all 3 questions.

   I love the emphasis with the caps here. It's like, as a reader, you just 
know what won't happen.

    I'd give up if I were you aQ and go enjoy some PoVing.  :)

      ~Steve~

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On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:16:58 +0100, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>
> Yet again, the Haskell mailing lists collectively have more PhDs than  
> you can shake a stick at. There are people there who know the difference  
> between an endomorphism and an epimorphism, and people who actually  
> comprehend the Curry-Howard isomorphism. And, almost unanimously, they  
> all regard me as some kind of troll. They think I'm there just to cause  
> disruption.


Because you *are* causing disruption. You continue to question things the  
old-timers have taken for granted for so long. Your kind will lead the way  
into the future, stepping over their tired old corpses on the way.

Keep it up.



-- 
FE

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On 2/16/2009 8:16 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>> - Everybody else on the Internet is an asshole.
>>
>> There are a lot of assholes out there..

Seriously, there are!

> Warp seems to access the Internet only to tell me I've mis-spelt things.

lol!  That is, honestly, one of the funniest things I've read in a long 
time :)  Trust me, you're not THAT important to him!

> OTOH, Warp is clearly a God-like programmer, and when He says something
> about programming, he's usually right. (Though not always.) Go ask him
> what the most efficient way to implement a Huffman tree in C++ is; I bet
> he knows.



> It seems like only a few months ago I started learning Haskell, but the
> other day I found an assay about it, written by me, dated 2004. I've
> been using this thing for *years*! And during all that time, Warp keeps
> telling me that it's hopelessly inefficient, and I keep saying it isn't.

If you want efficient, go for C.  There's a reason it's still around, 
despite C++ being 20 years old.

Haskell isn't C.  It's not trying to be, either.

> reason why X is false. It ceased to be about the truth, and about
> wanting to be right. I *wanted* Haskell to be the best.

I've definitely been there; actually, that's how I feel about POV-Ray. 
There are honestly programs out there that people accomplish a lot more 
in, with less effort, but I don't care - I love POV's way of doing things!

> Yet again, the Haskell mailing lists collectively have more PhDs than
> you can shake a stick at.

Listen to me: the more educated you are, the more likely you are to be 
an asshole - ESPECIALLY to people who either don't understand your point 
of view, or (even worse) people who don't agree with you.

If you show up on their mailing list, asking questions about why things 
are the way they are, you're likely to piss them off just because you 
have good questions.  You're not a "yes" man, you're not a fawning 
sycophant, and that makes your intelligence a threat to their 
established positions of power.

Maybe I'm just cynical, but unfortunately my experience backs up 
humanity's dark side :(

> If it was just one person who disliked me, it probably wouldn't bother
> me. But when so many otherwise rational, intelligent people all say
> you're stupid... eventually it starts to sink in.

What about when so many otherwise rational, intelligent people all say 
you're smart & they like you?  Who are going to listen to?

-- 
...Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

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Invisible wrote:
>>> Nobody else on the forum gets singled out as a troll. (Except for 
>>> that one guy who really *is* a troll!) Lots of other people, many of 
>>> them beginners like myself, manage to coexist quite happily. So 
>>> clearly I personally must be doing something very wrong to attract 
>>> this kind of negative attention.
>>
>> What made them think you're a troll?
> 
> This is of course the crucial question.
> 
> What is it about me that makes so many different people think that I'm 
> just an attention-seeking fool with a loud mouth who doesn't know what 
> he's talking about? Several different people, in unrelated forums, have 
> all independently come to the same conclusion. There must be a reason 
> for this.

If I had to guess I'd say that it has little to do with your ability and 
more to do with the volume of your posts (which I assume is similarly 
large on the Haskell forums).  Since this group is off-topic it's not 
really a problem, and I enjoy that it means there's almost always 
something to read when I want to procrastinate.  If the Haskell forums 
aren't off-topic, however, then it's something of a different story.  I 
imagine  you might get a similar reaction if you were accounting for 50% 
of the posts in povray.general (and people didn't know you from p.o-t 
already).

Anyway, I don't think you should take it personally, but remember that 
most other people can't keep up with your rate of posting, and that this 
might cause a problem in a forum where there's an expectation that posts 
will be read and carefully responded to.  Of course, I don't visit the 
Haskell forums so this is all pure speculation on my part, so feel free 
to discard it accordingly.

Also, don't confuse Haskell `sucking' with Haskell simply not being 
better than other languages in all circumstances.  I don't think 
anyone's arguing that C++ will always give you a `better' solution than 
Haskell for every problem.

Also also, don't get so down about not being the best at some things. 
No expert started out that way, and even for the best experts there's 
almost always someone better.  It's just part of life.

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Invisible wrote:
> being flamed by Darren for thinking that databases are worth using,

Huh??  I'm ... pretty sure I never meant to imply they aren't.

> Logically, which of these is most likely to be correct?

Both, really. :-)

> I could sit here complaining about how everybody seems to have it in for 
> me. Or I could just face up to the fact that I UPSET PEOPLE, and ask 
> myself why...

Or you could believe maybe you're a bit sensitive and grouping in the people 
who like you with the people who don't, because they're all on the same side 
of the screen.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Invisible wrote:
> When somebody like that tells you you're an idiot, you sit up and take notice.

I don't think you're an idiot. I get a bit frustrated with people when they 
swallow marketing FUD that's trivially disprovable, or when they 
overgeneralize and then insist that the overgeneralization applies in every 
situation.  I think those are the two things online that bug me, and only 
coming from people I view as intelligent and educable. (I know that last bit 
sounds rather hubric, but I don't feel like coming up with a better word 
right now. :-)

You're not an idiot, and I never thought you were.

> personally must be doing something very wrong to attract this kind of 
> negative attention.

My guess is you're asking hard questions that make the Haskell experts feel 
like they've been wasting their time.  Hard questions like "why does C add 
this up in 2 seconds and Haskell takes 7 minutes?"

I've found a good technique is to admit upfront it's probably something 
you're doing wrong yourself, and ask for help fixing it, like "this program 
is much slower than an interative approach - what am I doing wrong that 
makes it so slow?"

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Warp wrote:
>   I'm not always right. Making yourself look smarter than you really are
> is an art.

That too! You're too honest sometimes, Andrew. I got my MS in BS a long time 
ago.

>   Of course when someone more knowledgeable about the subject calls your
> bluff, it can be really embarrassing. Admitting that you were wrong can
> be really difficult.

Actually, I find it rather cathartic. It has the drawback that it can reduce 
your street-cred in the short term, but if you interact with people for a 
while, it actually helps, because people will remember you're willing to 
admit you're wrong when you really were.

>   (Of course the same is true for C++ and probably all languages.

The best ones in that regard let you separate out the specification and the 
performance aspects into two separate jobs. SQL is very good at this, for 
example.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Chambers wrote:
> If you want efficient, go for C.  There's a reason it's still around, 
> despite C++ being 20 years old.

/Darren, cooking some popcorn and sitting back to watch Warp's response. ;-)

> Maybe I'm just cynical, but unfortunately my experience backs up 
> humanity's dark side :(

Speaking as an educated person, I have to agree with this one.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> For breakfast?
> 
> o.O
> 
> You win.

Actually, they're rather good on toast.

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