Phil Cook wrote:
> 
> I'm just impressed that you managed to balance the screen on that short 
> column of paint cans :-)
> 

Trust me, it wasn't easy. :-)

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
    http://www.zbxt.net
       aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

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Mike the Elder <nomail@nomail> wrote:
> Here's the mystery: How could the same people who
> could create art and story components which display virtually indisputable
> evidence of rather advanced aesthetic and intellectual sensibilities produce
> and publish a game in which the player is compelled to spend the great majority
> of playing time in INSANELY frequent and absolutely pointless battles with silly
> monsters?

  From an outsider point of view most of the battles in RPGs (be it Japanese
style or western style) seem pointless and boring. However, somehow when
you actually play the game, it can be quite addictive. (Why do you think
these games sell so much?)
  It's not only about mindless killing. It's about combat tactics and
leveling up.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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> 
> This being said, I've become fascinated with the game "Dragon Quest VIII" as a
> mysterious anthropological artifact.  Mysterious? Yes. If it was just plain
> awful, there would be no mystery.  There's plenty on drivel in the world and
> one more piece could be circumnavigated much as one avoids the calling card of
> a poorly supervised dog. Here's the mystery: How could the same people who
> could create art and story components which display virtually indisputable
> evidence of rather advanced aesthetic and intellectual sensibilities produce
> and publish a game in which the player is compelled to spend the great majority
> of playing time in INSANELY frequent and absolutely pointless battles with silly
> monsters?
> 
> Their HAD to be (IMHO) artists and writers saying, "This is really STUPID and
> it's wrecking the story!" and marketing "people" saying, "We need to sell
> gazillions of these to the masses... No continuous monster bashing means no
> gazillions of sales... No gazillions of sales means no project".
> 
> 


In fact, the Dragon Quest series has a long history (DQ8 is obviously 
the eigth :-) ), and DQ8 is the first one to be beautiful (beautiful 
graphics, orchestral music, etc.). All the previous one have been quite 
austere, and yet they were among the biggest hit in Japan, a real 
cultural phenomenon (Japanese politics even have voted a law which 
forbids the game to be released on weekdays, due to large absenteism 
from school and work !, see the 7th paragraph of 
http://www.rpgland.com/specialfeatures/dqhistory/historyofdragonquest.html 
).
This shows that there is 'something' in the system of the game itself, 
including the many battles which may seem pointless at first. You sort 
of need to get into the rythm of it...


Thibaut

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And lo on Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:17:07 -0000, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> did  
spake, saying:

> Mike the Elder <nomail@nomail> wrote:
>> Here's the mystery: How could the same people who
>> could create art and story components which display virtually  
>> indisputable
>> evidence of rather advanced aesthetic and intellectual sensibilities  
>> produce
>> and publish a game in which the player is compelled to spend the great  
>> majority
>> of playing time in INSANELY frequent and absolutely pointless battles  
>> with silly
>> monsters?
>
>   From an outsider point of view most of the battles in RPGs (be it  
> Japanese
> style or western style) seem pointless and boring. However, somehow when
> you actually play the game, it can be quite addictive. (Why do you think
> these games sell so much?)
>   It's not only about mindless killing. It's about combat tactics and
> leveling up.

No it's just grind - Oh look I get to fight these same three 'random'  
baddies who are using exactly the same tactics as the last ones. Why am I  
doing this rather then just running away or through them? Because if I  
don't level up then by the time I reach the end-boss it'll be one 9999  
attack and all my characters are dead.

I tried it once with... Final Fantasy X or possibly VIII, I went through  
the story with the minimum amount of roaming and repetition, got to the  
end and got wiped out because none of my attacks could put a dent in the  
bad guy/women/thing with tentacles and all its unavoidable attacks wiped  
out my party's health instantly.

I don't like games where the optional extras aren't really optional if you  
actually want to finish.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> I don't like games where the optional extras aren't really optional if you  
> actually want to finish.

  I understand that it's individual, but to some people leveling up is
exciting and addictive.

  I can certainly understand that someone might not find it addictive
at all. I myself find RTS games quite boring, even though they are really
popular among many people.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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And lo on Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:22:28 -0000, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> did  
spake, saying:

> Phil Cook <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
>> I don't like games where the optional extras aren't really optional if  
>> you actually want to finish.
>
>   I understand that it's individual, but to some people leveling up is
> exciting and addictive.

Like line-dancing :-P I enjoy levelling up in various games I just don't  
like it when you're forced to. Oblivion for instance you can technically  
stay at level 1 for ever and all the foes you meet are based on your  
level, In the Sly Cooper series there are times you *have* to purchase an  
item to progress, but the game is set up so that unless you've been  
reckless you've accrued enough coinage to do so quite naturally.

To be blunt I don't like games where I progress through the natural  
storyline only to get whipped solely because I haven't spent X hours  
wandering aimlesly around the countryside beating up anyone I meet, but as  
you say it's an individual thing.

>   I can certainly understand that someone might not find it addictive
> at all. I myself find RTS games quite boring, even though they are really
> popular among many people.

As with all things some are better then others.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Phil Cook wrote:
> I tried it once with... Final Fantasy X or possibly VIII, I went through 
> the story with the minimum amount of roaming and repetition, got to the 
> end and got wiped out because none of my attacks could put a dent in the 
> bad guy/women/thing with tentacles and all its unavoidable attacks wiped 
> out my party's health instantly.

It must have been X, because VIII used a scaling system so that the 
monsters were always some multiple of your strength.

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

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Mike the Elder wrote:
> This being said, I've become fascinated with the game "Dragon Quest VIII" as a

While I personally love Story, some games are played for the game itself 
rather than the story.

Meaning, people play DQ games because they enjoy the grind.  I don't get 
it, myself, as I think grind is one of the worst activities ever 
imagined, but there it is.

-- 
...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

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And lo on Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:11:56 -0000, Chambers  
<ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> I tried it once with... Final Fantasy X or possibly VIII, I went  
>> through the story with the minimum amount of roaming and repetition,  
>> got to the end and got wiped out because none of my attacks could put a  
>> dent in the bad guy/women/thing with tentacles and all its unavoidable  
>> attacks wiped out my party's health instantly.
>
> It must have been X, because VIII used a scaling system so that the  
> monsters were always some multiple of your strength.

It still had random encounters* and was on the PS2 yeah gotta be X;  
essentially the game seemed to be saying "Hey glad you got to this part of  
the story now bugger off and do a load of unrelated crap until you're good  
enough to progress"

*Okay online comic strip - the characters have stowed away aboard a ship's  
hold in a crate, get out and are confronted by some sort of cleaning robot  
who points out that to pass through the apparently empty hold will entail  
battling the 999 security robots contained therein [character takes one  
step fight music starts] 'Damnit not another random encounter'; sigh I  
just can't remember which comic.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Chambers wrote:
> While I personally love Story, some games are played for the game itself 
> rather than the story.

Go watch the speed runs of Serious Sam. Now *that* is a game played 
simply for the grind, as far as I can see.

When they lock you in a room and drop in 5000 rounds of ammo and 500 
monsters, then repeat that about 8 times in a row, you know the point is 
to just slay and slay.

Makes great video for the stairmaster, tho.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     "That's pretty. Where's that?"
          "It's the Age of Channelwood."
     "We should go there on vacation some time."

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