"Rune" <aut### [at] runevisioncom> wrote:


Having been to a SIGGRAPH conference, I have seen what by one measure is great
work in animation, ranging across multiple styles. Some of the stuff obtusely
made use of state of the art features of high end packages and was "great" but
completely unenjoyable.

I would take less offense at the idea that my animation talent is not world-wide
in quality than that povray, per se, is inevitably doomed to be unable to
produce in this field, even efficiently.  It just needs the right SDL system.
For example, with a little work, I could get my system to read mocap files--
characters could even be constructed directly from any arbitrary mocap data.

Two other points:
i) I still think it's incredibly cool I can get my life's creative work on one
CD. (The SDL files). How many other artists can say that.

ii) I once told a friend I was into computer animation. Soon his cousin was
emailing me to offer a hacked version of a high-end 3D program. This was the
life-- they had to hack software they couldn't afford to use otherwise.
For some of those SIGGRAPH presentations, it seemed like the software companies
were sponsors.


Just musin',
greg.




> "gregjohn" wrote:
> > I cannot speak at all to th "aim" of povray, but I do character animation
> > of
> > cartoony humans by typing.
>
> Having done that myself once, I will allow myself to question the efficiency
> of that approach. The character animations that you and I have made with
> POV-Ray are not exactly considered state of the art.
>
> I hate to admit it, but the one week I spent making my first ever animation
> with 3ds Max was more productive than any of the animations I had ever done
> with POV-Ray after having used it for years.
>
> POV-Ray certainly has its merits, but if it ain't procedural, it can
> probably be done faster with other software.
>
> Rune
> --
> http://runevision.com

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"gregjohn" wrote:
> I would take less offense at the idea that my animation talent is not 
> world-wide
> in quality than that povray, per se, is inevitably doomed to be unable to
> produce in this field, even efficiently.

The scripting approach is doomed to be inefficient for modeling and 
animation of non-procedural things like characters. Using POV-Ray as a 
renderer is a different matter, and I find that much more realistic.

> It just needs the right SDL system.
> For example, with a little work, I could get my system to read mocap 
> files--

Sure. Then the animation would be done outside of POV-Ray, which would 
indeed be more effecient.

> characters could even be constructed directly from any arbitrary mocap 
> data.

Yeah, but characters modeled in POV-Ray always seem to be shaped more by the 
posibilities and limitations of the program, than by the imagination of the 
artist. You could import meshes and make code to adapt them to arbritary 
mocap data, but then the actual modeling would still be done outside of 
POV-Ray, which again would be more effecient.

> Two other points:
> i) I still think it's incredibly cool I can get my life's creative work on 
> one
> CD. (The SDL files). How many other artists can say that.

Not many, but I don't think many would think of it as important either, 
especially if it is limiting their artistic expression. And if you begin 
using detailed meshes, image maps and mocap data in your POV-Ray animations, 
it won't hold true anymore.

> ii) I once told a friend I was into computer animation. Soon his cousin 
> was
> emailing me to offer a hacked version of a high-end 3D program. This was 
> the
> life-- they had to hack software they couldn't afford to use otherwise.
> For some of those SIGGRAPH presentations, it seemed like the software 
> companies
> were sponsors.

POV-Ray is free and that's great; no doubt about that. That still doesn't 
mean it's an effecient tool for character modeling and animation. :) If it 
was, companies would be all over it, with all the money they could save on 
licenses for expensive 3D software.

Rune
-- 
http://runevision.com

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Rune wrote:
>> For some of those SIGGRAPH presentations, it seemed like the software 
>> companies were sponsors.
Talking about sponsoring, I don't see much enthusiasm yet to sponsor 
your trip. :( Come on guys, Rune is going to make it big in the games 

pay back in 5 years time, guaranteed without interest. That's an 
opportunity you can not afford to miss.

> 
> POV-Ray is free and that's great; no doubt about that. That still doesn't 
> mean it's an efficient tool for character modeling and animation. :) If it 
> was, companies would be all over it, with all the money they could save on 
> licenses for expensive 3D software.
> 
No, free also means that you can not phone someone and demand that a bug 
is fixed now or preferably yesterday. That is why I always give my 
programs for free, I don't want to have to do support.

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"andrel" wrote:
> Talking about sponsoring, I don't see much enthusiasm yet to sponsor your 
> trip. :( Come on guys, Rune is going to make it big in the games industry. 

> 5 years time, guaranteed without interest. That's an opportunity you can 
> not afford to miss.

Lending someone money without interest and having a chance of maybe getting 
it back is something you can't afford to miss? :D

I really appreciate the offer from you and the interest, but I couldn't 
accept such a thing.

Rune
-- 
http://runevision.com

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Rune wrote:
> "andrel" wrote:
>> Talking about sponsoring, I don't see much enthusiasm yet to sponsor your 
>> trip. :( Come on guys, Rune is going to make it big in the games industry. 

>> 5 years time, guaranteed without interest. That's an opportunity you can 
>> not afford to miss.
> 
> Lending someone money without interest and having a chance of maybe getting 
> it back is something you can't afford to miss? :D
> 
> I really appreciate the offer from you and the interest, but I couldn't 
> accept such a thing.
> 
I can understand that, and actually I didn't expect anything else. Yet, 
I still think that you should at least try to get there, and this is 
just a way to express how important I think it is. One obvious possible 
sponsor is the company you are going to work with. Another one is your 
university. If you had been a student of mine, I am pretty sure I could 
get you a grant from any of a couple of (semi)government and 
professional organizations. So talk to your adviser at the university. 
Still, if you fail in all these things, don't hesitate to tell us.

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> I note with humor this selling point from the description of Sketchup Pro:
> 
> "Typing is a lousy way to draw. Building 3D models is tricky enough without
> having to think like a computer. Instead of making you input coordinates,
> SketchUp has an advanced guidance system of colors, lines and text hints that
> help you keep track of where you are and what you're doing."

As a regular-basis Sketchup user, I'd often like to be able to give 
coordinates, instead of trying to convince the smart-and-simple-but-
sometimes-limited-input-system to put a point where I'd like it to
go.

Maybe I should check for, or create, some Ruby script to do that.

Fabien.

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> Today I read that you need the full version and *signing an NDA* to get 
> the C++ SDK (for example to write a converter).

Export is based on Collada, which was intended for free exchange of
data, but every vertex has an offset (the Lat/Long of your IP lookup)
added to it. Not only does this "sign" every bit of data as originating
from your computer, the actual data is small in comparison, so
every vertex needs to be scaled back up after subtracting off the
Lat/Long. This makes exporting curved surfaces impossible,
since the data is lost in the least significant bits. I would guess that
there is some setting in the registered version that disables this
behavior.

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> "andrel" wrote:
> > Talking about sponsoring, I don't see much enthusiasm yet to sponsor your
> > trip. :( Come on guys, Rune is going to make it big in the games industry.

> > 5 years time, guaranteed without interest. That's an opportunity you can
> > not afford to miss.


<  Greg makes a mental note to look for the URL he must have missed about this,
not to get cash for self in future, but to support Rune now.  Worries that he's



"Rune" <aut### [at] runevisioncom> wrote:
>
> I really appreciate the offer from you and the interest, but I couldn't
> accept such a thing.
>

 oh.  8^)

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> I note with humor this selling point from the description of Sketchup Pro:
>
> "Typing is a lousy way to draw. Building 3D models is tricky enough 
> without
> having to think like a computer. Instead of making you input coordinates,
> SketchUp has an advanced guidance system of colors, lines and text hints 
> that
> help you keep track of where you are and what you're doing."
>
> http://www.sketchup.com/?id=2

Just for interest, all modern 3D CAD programs work in similar way to 
SketchUp to start with.  You draw you stuff using the mouse, and the 
software automatically tries to guess what you meant to do (ie lines at 
right angles to each other, lines parallel, same length etc).  After you've 
drawn your initial sketch you can then go and delete/add constraints until 
your sketch is exactly as you want.  Of course constraints can be formulae 
based on other dimensions, other drawings etc so it's very flexible to build 
up a whole model based on just a few parameters.  The huge benefit is that 
when you want to change one of the key parameters, the entire model is 
updated in virtually real-time (depending on the complexity of the model...)

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scott wrote:

> Just for interest, all modern 3D CAD programs work in similar way to 
> SketchUp to start with.  You draw you stuff using the mouse, and the 
> software automatically tries to guess what you meant to do (ie lines at 
> right angles to each other, lines parallel, same length etc).  After 
> you've drawn your initial sketch you can then go and delete/add 
> constraints until your sketch is exactly as you want.  Of course 
> constraints can be formulae based on other dimensions, other drawings 
> etc so it's very flexible to build up a whole model based on just a few 
> parameters.  The huge benefit is that when you want to change one of the 
> key parameters, the entire model is updated in virtually real-time 
> (depending on the complexity of the model...)

1. Wow... Actual CAD software exists and there are people who use it.

2. A mouse? Really? Not a tablet or some other futuristic input device?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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