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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:36:00 -0500, Warp wrote:
>
>> If the argument against publishing criticism of islam is that you
>> should
>> not do it if you value your life then there's something horribly wrong.
>
> I suppose we could ask Salman Rushdie for his thoughts on that subject....
>
At least you can still ask *him*.
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On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:08:28 +0100, Vincent Le Chevalier
<gal### [at] libertyALLsurfSP AMfr> wrote:
>Stephen wrote:
>> But to say that the vast majority of people need to be told how to
>> live is elitism. IMO The vast majority of people need food and an
>> education and not to be oppressed.
>
>Perhaps I'm misunderstanding nemesis but I thought he meant that the
>majority of people are willing to follow someone posturing as a leader,
>and possibly looking for this person, even if they don't need that leader.
>
True but he said that 90% of people are sheep and that in not polite
if you think that each one is a person. That was part of my gripe.
>I've seen that attitude in plenty of contexts: people just looking for
>someone to follow, not necessarily interested in forming their own opinion.
>
True I'm like that as well but not on this subject :)
>It depends on context by the way; you can be a sort of leader on certain
>questions, and go for the easier "follower" attitude on other matters.
True again
>Hence we can all be part of both the clueless majority and enlightened
>minority ;-)
Why should the majority be clueless and the minority enlightened?
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:59:58 -0300, nemesis
<nam### [at] nospamgmailcom> wrote:
>Stephen wrote:
>> You might say that but I couldn't possibly comment.
>
>I'm just a software programmer, not even seeking to dominate the world
>by inventing some super AI and calling it G.O.D.
>
That was a joke, a quote even :)
>> Sorry, I was brought up a Presbyterian who was taught that you don't
>> need anyone to stand between you and your morals.
>
>And happy you are.
Wrong! Taught but not encouraged, I might have added.
> Most people in the world are brought up to
>revere/worship/follow religious authorities, dictators, kings,
>politicians, popstars, cult authors etc.
By the religious authorities, dictators, kings etc :)
>It seems to be in human nature
>to be in constant search of out-of-ordinary heroes to be personal models
>of behavior.
>
Depends what you mean by out-of-ordinary heroes? A good man or woman
would do me.
>> IMO The vast majority of people need food and an
>> education and not to be oppressed.
>
>I agree. Even so, I can't help but fear that most of these
>non-oppressed, educated people would still be in search of other people
>to tell them how they should live their lives -- like indeed is very
>common to see people in big industrialized cities to search for some
>help to their personal problems with psychoanalysts (a modern father of
>sorts).
Not when I was young in dockland Glasgow. I think that is an American
thing.
Let people have something worthwhile to do and the means to do it and
they would be a lot happier and healthier.
>The problem with people isn't education or political regimes:
>it's that they are too damn lazy to try to solve their problems and end
>up resorting to others.
No point in giving them baths is there? I'm sure that they would only
put coal in them.
That means that I've heard it before and I don't believe it. In fact
it doesn't wash :)
>> And as for being as much of a sinner as anyone else. Then stop being
>> one and that includes the sins of making people believe in your small
>> god
>
>I don't force God down the throats of anyone, do I?
Small gods refers to the diminishing power of schisms in religion. And
no I don't think you do, do you?
>> and starting sentences with and or but. (A particular failing of
>> mine.)
>
>oh! :P
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:26:39 +0100, andrel wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 08:36:00 -0500, Warp wrote:
>>
>>> If the argument against publishing criticism of islam is that you
>>> should
>>> not do it if you value your life then there's something horribly
>>> wrong.
>>
>> I suppose we could ask Salman Rushdie for his thoughts on that
>> subject....
>>
> At least you can still ask *him*.
True enough....Of course, he's out of hiding now. I'm not even sure the
Fatwah is still on for him, is it?
Jim
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In article <47E### [at] hotmailcom>, a_l### [at] hotmailcom
says...
> What is at stake here is nothing less than the survival of the US
> itself. On one side the group of people that noticed that moral
> behaviour is dropping while (or because) religion is losing ground with
> respect to when they were young.
Umm. Which country are you talking about here? Seriously. In the last 10
years we have gone from the European view of religion, where its all
sort of there, but no one worries to much about it, to one where you
have to prove which one of you kisses God's ass better to be recommended
for election, never mind winning it. What we, on the inside, see is a
small group of nuts, similar to the same kinds than led to the Jim Jones
cult, Heaven's Gate, and Wacko, but with *huge* followings of people
that think religion has lost ground, not because it has, and those of us
among the secular have lost many battles, but because we finally
realized we can't afford to lose any more, and have tried to fight back.
In the same period, we have seen religion produce pedophiles, radical
Islam, people willing to blame every natural disaster on God's
punishment of what ever group they hate this week, faith based
everything, leading to millions of people not receiving medical
treatment in places like Africa, proper sex ed in the US, and an
increasingly more and more rabid attempt to push prayers into schools,
government facilities, etc. We have seen museums built to idiocy,
politicians basing policies on who they hate, while often being the ones
"commiting" what they hate, etc. They all blame this on "secular"
society, and in a country where the leaders of the left are the
religious and ideological equivalent to the right wingers in Europe, the
right wing here is convinced the whole country is going to hell, not
because **they** can't keep their pants on, stay away from other
people's kids, or act morally, but because those of us that don't think
religion *must* be the core of every waking moment **caused** them to
act this way.
Sorry, but, from my perspective, religion has gotten "more powerful" in
the US in my life time, and with that power has come a need by its
proponents to rewrite history and distort facts to cement that power,
and a paranoia about vast conspiracies to unseat them.
Your view of the situation from our side is, somewhat accurate, but
incomplete. Its not about economics, or super powers, or even science.
Its about what has happened in **every** single case where those with an
ideological goal, and no real morals, values, self limitations of their
behavior, or recognition of their own mistakes, tries to force a country
in the direction of becoming more obsessive about that ideology, while
those who could have done something about it sink into apathy.
The irony here is that "both" sides think the problem in moral
bankruptcy and lack of ethics. I would argue that history tends to
strongly suggest that obsession with ideology is *always* the problem.
As for science being the main issue of the other side... Its only *one*
issue. Yes, we certainly consider it one of the big ones, but its only
the target being most hammered by the other side right now. They have
certain basic themes, depending on what they are griping about at the
moment, "family", "sex", "life styles", and, "the bankruptcy of
science". It goes in cycles, and some times overlaps. Last time they
harped, and harped about gays, life style choices, and the definition of
family, a trifecta of concepts they want to own. When that failed, they
decided that the only way to get anyone to listen was to corrupt
education, thus the wedge document, which declared evolution as the
crack into which they could "wedge" religion, so as to spread religious
teaching through ***all*** branches of the school system. Mind you, the
only reason they thought it would make a good wedge was do to there
ignorance and complete failure to understand the science, but that is
beside the point.
Yes, it will damage the US future economy, etc. But, I am far more
concerned about the fact that they are already trying to rewrite early
US history to back their attacks on science, as well as making other
attempts to feed their religion into other classes. If you are willing
to lie, cheat, and steal your way to power, the biggest concern is not
if the US suffers some minor hiccup in its science, but the moral
bankruptcy, the distortion of reality, and the collapse of civil ideals
into some new inquisition that worry me and others. Science is just the
first casualty in this, and precisely because they actually think its
both a) possible to convince gullible people the see it as evil, and in
need of being chained (unfortunately accurate), and b) the weak point in
the defenses of secularism (which they equate with atheism).
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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In article <web.47e8fa09bd0847b4c85f90600@news.povray.org>,
nam### [at] gmailcom says...
> I think you're losing your hair in a hopeless battle against ignorance an
d
> stupidity. 90% of mankind are sheep and are lost without a sheppherd. A
few
> luminaries are able to discover the fire and bring light to these creatur
es.
> You and I can do nothing but waste time in entertaining, but ultimately u
seless
> discussions in internet forums and newsgroups.
>
They are sheep because a) there are plenty of well trained liars that
have spent thousands of years learning how best to be sheppards to lead
them, while we have had a few hundred to figure out that the sheppards
where all tards, and b) most people never see a need to know anything
past how to find the next meal and a bed to sleep in. The irony often
being that its the sheppards and their followers that are the most
likely to decide that the answers are, "someone else's lunch", and,
"other people's beds".
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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In article <47e975df$1@news.povray.org>, nam### [at] nospamgmailcom
says...
> I agree. Even so, I can't help but fear that most of these
> non-oppressed, educated people would still be in search of other people
> to tell them how they should live their lives -- like indeed is very
> common to see people in big industrialized cities to search for some
> help to their personal problems with psychoanalysts (a modern father of
> sorts). The problem with people isn't education or political regimes:
> it's that they are too damn lazy to try to solve their problems and end
> up resorting to others.
>
Kind of like Protestants.. Start with the premise that you don't need
the trappings of the church, just a personal relationship with god, then
proceed to build lots of churches, rewrite bits of the Bible to sound
better, then become some of the most obnoxious people on the planet
about being sheppards, by "telling people about Jesus", even when they
don't want to know. lol
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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In article <a30ju3p36qteeban2l1htfmffh7fafb443@4ax.com>,
mcavoysAT@aolDOTcom says...
> >Hence we can all be part of both the clueless majority and enlightened
> >minority ;-)
>
> Why should the majority be clueless and the minority enlightened?
>
Show me a time in history that this wasn't the case. lol Seriously,
*everyone* is clueless about some things, a small number though rise
above the majority, to varied amounts, due to upbringing, or natural
talent, and often have, in some areas, a far clearer understanding of
the world than the vast majority. The majority though, tend to look for
those that confirm their opinion, not those that challenge it (which is
one of the main traits that distinguish that other minority). This is
what priesthoods are based on, the careful catering to the
*expectations* of the parishioner. When churches have, on rare occation,
gotten uppity and told people they didn't want to hear, the result where
usually not too good for the church. Though, its a toss up whether this
has been worse than the cases where they told their followers what they
wanted to hear, only to have those people later discover it was a lie
(like a number of fun scandals the US has seen recently, of which the
Catholics are but one in a broad membership).
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] rraznet> wrote:
> Kind of like Protestants.. Start with the premise that you don't need
> the trappings of the church, just a personal relationship with god, then
> proceed to build lots of churches, rewrite bits of the Bible to sound
> better, then become some of the most obnoxious people on the planet
> about being sheppards, by "telling people about Jesus", even when they
> don't want to know. lol
It's good to see that this thread about bashing ID proponents has not
converted into an attack towards christian movements.
--
- Warp
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On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:55:49 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> people willing to blame every natural disaster on God's punishment of
> what ever group they hate this week,
The funniest one of this category was a tornado that hit locally here.
We had a guy (yes, past tense) who did work on our fireplace for us (an
honest-to-$DEITY chimney sweep, actually). He came by to do some work
and got into a discussion with my wife about the reason for the tornado.
He's a self-proclaimed "born-again" Christian (hands up all those who
thought I was going to say he was a Mormon - surprise! <g>).
The tornado hit downtown Salt Lake City - it wasn't a huge one, but it
dropped down *near* a gay bar. His bias clearly showed when he said "God
was punishing the gays."
My wife's response was very straightforward. "My brother's gay. Your
God missed if he was trying to punish the gays. This is the last job you
will do for us - you're fired."
Ironically, if it was God's "punishment" for something, while missing the
gay bar, he did actually drive it right through a construction site for
the new (at the time) LDS general conference center - knocking down a
couple of cranes in the process, one of which was actually occupied by a
worker at the time (the worker survived).
The only death was an out-of-towner who was setting up for the annual
outdoor retailer's conference.
Jim
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