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Mike Raiford <mra### [at] hotmail com> wrote:
> Warp, Have you ever had the pleasure of meeting a (or at least
> interacting with online) one of the so-called born again southern
> baptists. They usually tend to take the bible literally, and will
> proselytize everyone they come in contact with. Maybe this is why some
> atheists appear to be vehemently anti-Christian.
I understand *why* so many atheists so vehemently oppose christianity
in particular, while having a much milder attitude towards other religions.
However, my point is that that kind of attitude is hypocritical.
--
- Warp
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In article <473### [at] hotmailcom>, a_l### [at] hotmailcom
says...
> Warp wrote:
> >
> > Regardless of whether evolution is true or not, that's one of the thi
ngs
> > which always make me laugh. Anti-christian atheists always consider so-
called
> > microevolution (eg. wolves and dogs having a common ancestor species) t
o be
> > the same thing as macroevolution (everything on Earth evolved from one
> > single living cell). Accepting the former but doubting the latter is
> > considered contradictory.
> I don't know if you ever read the origin of species, but for me the main
> point in it revolves around the concept of a species. I think the point
> where the devout christian Darwin turned away from a literal
> interpretation of the bible is in the story of Noah's ark. While
> thinking of the concept of a species and the definition of it he was
> gradually forced to admit that there is no such concept as a species.
> Undoubtedly a dog and an oak are not the same species, but that does not
> imply that for every two individual plants or animals you can decide
> whether they are the same species or not, not even a supernatural being
> can do that. Hence there is no way that Noah's story can be true. After
> taking that hurdle Darwin freed himself from the literal interpretation
> of the bible and was able to take all the other steps.
> I am an atheist (though not an anti-christian one, some of my best
> friends are Christian) and indeed I think that microevolution and
> macroevolution are the same thing. Because the distinction is based on
> the concept of a species, which may be handy concept in everyday live,
> but scientifically it is fundamentally flawed. It is possibly comparable
> to using Newtonian physics. Handy in normal live, but we know that in
> the end, nature is not like that.
> > Regardless of what is the truth, that logic is flawed.
> True, if you believe that 'species' is a well defined concept then it is
> indeed possible to believe one and not the other.
>
Yes, there are two things you could call species - A) What looks
different enough to call it one, and which is naturally separated enough
by inclination, territory, etc. to remain separate or B) Things too
different to interbreed. The first one is the traditional
interpretation, while the second is a more strict version that doesn't
work for about 90% of what we deem "species", at least in categories
like cats, some birds, etc. Its a sloppy term. The joke of course is
that the ID people muddle things even more, by inventing the term
"kinds", which means little more than, "Things that look a lot alike, so
must have all micro-evolved from one goat/horse/sheep/turtle/rabbit/etc.
Though, I have to wonder, wouldn't someone have noticed if, within the
unbelievably short time it would have needed to happen, billions of
different colors, shapes and sizes of all those animals started popping
up to fill in the gaps in the ecosystem all over the world? You would
think *someplace* you would find a comment like, "Yesterday I had two
rabbits, with brown fur and short ears. Today I have 12, some with sandy
hair, some with floppy ears, some with puffy tails, some with larger
than normal feet, and a myriad of other differences." lol They seem to
forget that it would have taken time for all those species to spread
across the globe, and change, and that there where **people** around to
see all those stuff happening, so it had to have either happened in a
really long time *before* any flood, so as to avoid the glaring lack of
mention of sudden rapid changes being observed or it would have all had
to have happened in literally days after they reached land again (with,
again, no one noticing any of it), in order for there to be this many.
Otherwise, by their own argument, if it took all of 6,000 years to do,
then we, or someone in the last 6,000, should have seen new species just
*popping* into existence to fill incomplete parts of the grand plan
every day.
You can't have it both ways. It can't take time to diverge, but have the
only time available to do that be **while** people where around to see
it, or take no time at all for the entire planet to get filled up with
billions of species, and have literally **no one**, including Noah and
family, notice those billions of species popping into existence right
and left to make it happen that way. Both are absurdly silly (not in the
least because if the first version where true, they would have a damn
hard time claiming we didn't observe anything evolve).
--
void main () {
call functional_code()
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
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Warp wrote:
> There's no law in science which says that you must have an alternative
> theory in order to reasonably doubt an existing theory.
No, but there *is* a "law" that says you have to have some contradictory
evidence. :-)
Now, if you're saying "Evolution isn't complete because it doesn't
explain X", then sure, that's a reasonable doubt.
> "I don't know an explanation for this, and this presented explanation
> seems too implausible to me" is a perfectly valid way of thinking, even
> scientifically. You don't need an alternative theory to be able to do
> that in a completely rational and valid basis.
Sure. You can "doubt" it, but without another theory, all you're really
saying is "I don't understand this well enough to know why everyone else
is convinced."
"Implausible" implies some degree of probability calculation. "I have no
explanation for these photographs of people standing on the moon, but
the presented explanation seems too implausible to me."
> Take any unsolved question in science, which science has yet not an
> answer to, and present the theory "it happens because invisible gnomes
> do it from inside the Earth". Even if the scientist doesn't have any
> alternative theory to that, it's still completely valid for him to doubt
> that presented theory.
Right. That's because there's no evidence in *favor* of gnomes, either.
There are literally countless theories that could explain something
unsolved, and until you show how that explains something else also, or
how you could do an experiment to show it's wrong, then it doesn't make
sense to work strenuously towards the theory. It seems like a perfectly
reasonable question to ask "why gnomes, and not unicorns?"
> Is this some kind of philosophical question now? Do you get an
> existentialist crisis if there's something you don't know how and
> why it works?
You were talking about evolution, to start with, tho. We know there are
theories that aren't complete. We know there are unanswered questions in
every scientific theory. But most stuff tends to be refinements of what
we already know in realms we couldn't measure before. Even quantum and
relativity didn't overthrow newtonian physics - we still use that to
shoot space probes.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] rraznet> wrote:
> In article <473cde43@news.povray.org>, war### [at] tagpovrayorg says...
> > Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] rraznet> wrote:
> > > Why the #@$@$@ is it flawed.
> >
> > You sound like a religious fanatic.
> >
> Why? Because I got a bit annoyed and dared to ask a question?
Because you used symbolized expletives where none was really needed,
and your overall tone was quite strong. Fanatics tend to shout and use
expletives when having a "discussion" with someone they disagree with.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> Regardless of what is the truth, that just seems to be mocking for the
> sake of mocking. "Hahahaa! Look at all those idiots!"
I will point out that without the mocking, this long thread discussing
scientific theory and practice would not have occurred. :-) Hence, the
mocking obviously had some use here, getting some of the more religious
people trying to defend their beliefs in some small way.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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In article <473d189a@news.povray.org>,
pte### [at] thecommononethatstartswithYcom says...
> Warp wrote:
>
> > Regardless of whether evolution is true or not, that's one of the thing
s
> > which always make me laugh. Anti-christian atheists always consider
> > so-called microevolution (eg. wolves and dogs having a common ancestor
> > species) to be the same thing as macroevolution (everything on Earth
> > evolved from one single living cell). Accepting the former but doubting
> > the latter is considered contradictory.
> > Regardless of what is the truth, that logic is flawed.
>
>
> Michael Behe, author of Darwin's Black Box, makes a claim that neoDarwini
an
> processes could not have brought about irreducibly complex processes such
> as formation of an eye. He actually came to speak at a conference my
> church put on. I asked him about whether a process of "change through
> descent" could bring about speciation. He said yes, he believed it could
.
>
> My 15 seconds of fame in the evolution debate.
>
lol Self contradiction much? Behe is an example of someone who has a
degree, but is clueless anyway. Every time he comes up with something
*irreducible*, someone quotes a paper clearly showing how the mechanism
arose from reducible processes. But the gem is, how can you get species,
which in this case implies an irreducible result, via a process that
can't produce irreducible systems?
Even sillier though is that several people, though I don't remember any
of the links at the moment, have created simple computer programs that
use random selection to produce irreducible function. Its very easy to
get such a thing.
--
void main () {
call functional_code()
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Every time he comes up with something
> *irreducible*, someone quotes a paper clearly showing how the mechanism
> arose from reducible processes.
And even if it didn't, there's at least four or five other plausible
ways of getting irreducible genetics into organisms that have nothing to
do with God at all. So as a religious offering, "Evolution is wrong"
doesn't really pan out.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Do you doubt that the fundamentalists think you're crazy and deserve
> scorn if you don't believe what they do?
Why should I care about what some fundamentalists think? I was not
talking about fundamentalists. And if they think like that, why should
I care about that either?
> > Or are you trying to say that since creationists ridicule scientists
> > it then becomes ok for scientists to ridicule creationists? That's
> > flawed logic.
> No, the creationists deserve ridicule because they have crazy fixations
> with no support. They deserve ridicule just as we ridicule people who
> believe we've never gone to the moon, people who believe the earth is
> flat, and people who believe that Zeus makes lightning.
And that's exactly the idea I'm not comfortable with: That it's ok to
make fun of people if they are obviously wrong.
That's an attitude which may be fit for small children, but IMO it's not
an attitude fit to civilized adults.
Mocking and loathing is not constructive. It only makes animosities
stronger.
> >> Debunking has been done and redone and re-re-done, at some stage it
> >> needs to stop.
> >
> > So the next logical step is to start mocking and ridiculing? Yes, that
> > makes a whole lot of sense.
> Indeed it does.
I disagree. The world is not getting any better with disrespect, mocking,
ridicule and loathing. It's only making things worse.
> > Valid for what purpose? It certainly isn't constructive and can only
> > make things worse.
> In what way?
In that it only deepens the animosity between the groups.
> You're not going to change the mind of the religious
> person.
So let's make things even worse and make him hate you?
--
- Warp
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From: Vincent Le Chevalier
Subject: Re: Getting Kenned Ham, without paying.
Date: 16 Nov 2007 14:44:21
Message: <473df315$1@news.povray.org>
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>> You're not going to change the mind of the religious person.
>
> So let's make things even worse and make him hate you?
>
You know the world is not made of just scientists and religious nuts.
There is a whole lot of people watching the debate...
If I have to be hated by one fool to prevent a hundred people following
him blindly because no-one wanted to sound confrontational, well so be
it. It does not make things worst overall.
--
Vincent
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Warp wrote:
> You always sound so arrogant, but in this case you are simply wrong,
> sorry, and this time I have quite clear references. For example:
>
> http://amasci.com/weird/end.html
OK, so for 20 years they thought they'd have everything figured out.
That's hardly stagnation.
>> You're so full of crap.
> You are being unusually rude today.
You are correct. I am still feeling unwell. I apologise.
> And that somehow disproves the claim that a large amount of scientists
> strongly opposed Eintein's and others' theories at first?
Sure, but clearly for less than 10 years. Obviously, scientific change
*does* take some time, or it's just technology.
> And why do you bring up religion into this?
Must be something about the thread. Hmmm... Could be the creationist
museum concept?
> Where have I proposed that? Why do you insist in bringing religion
> into this?
I dunno. I look at the subject line, and when you say "I believe
evolution is implausible", I have to believe it's because you prefer the
religious explanation.
>> Like I said, illogical.
> You certainly sound arrogant.
"Please explain to this man the difference between arrogance and
competence."
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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