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Am Fri, 21 Jan 2011 09:00:42 +0000 schrieb Invisible:
> I'm not sure about the USA, but in the UK you can't photocopy stuff for
> use in the classroom without the copyright holder's permission. (Wanna
> guess why school materials cost so much?)
That is interesting (especially the situation in the netherlands) as it
is different from germany. Under certain conditions it is legal to copy
parts of a work for educational purposes (and even for private usage
under certain conditions). But because of this we pay a small fee on any
medium or recording device (according to wikipedia 17 cent on a blank DVD
disc and 9.21 Euro on a DVD Burner)
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On 22/01/2011 11:58 AM, Florian Pesth wrote:
> That is interesting (especially the situation in the netherlands) as it
> is different from germany. Under certain conditions it is legal to copy
> parts of a work for educational purposes (and even for private usage
> under certain conditions). But because of this we pay a small fee on any
> medium or recording device (according to wikipedia 17 cent on a blank DVD
> disc and 9.21 Euro on a DVD Burner)
Ah yes, the old "if you have equipment that can copy things you're
obviously using it to copy protected works" assumption. Nice.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 21/01/2011 01:31 PM, scott wrote:
>> No. I mean that it only takes one single person to work out how to
>> defeat DRM (which will happen with probability 1), and your system is
>> broken. You no longer have control over what people do with your data.
>
> But the DRM is not useless in that situation, as not everyone knows how
> to find illegal copies.
And not everybody knows how to turn on a DVD player either.
The question is whether "enough" people know how to find this stuff, or
are willing to use it rather than pay.
>> (More to the point, with current DRM systems, it's actually *easier* to
>> use the cracked content than the genuine article. Incentive to pay,
>> much?)
>
> A good example is the adverts before a film on a DVD that you are forced
> to watch. A cracked copy will usually cut out the adverts, and some
> people would say it is doing no harm by doing that themselves for their
> own personal use. But, the fact that the adverts cannot be skipped is
> actually creating income for the publisher, without them they'd need to
> charge more for the DVD in the first place.
I've yet to see a DVD where you can't skip the adverts. Usually you
cannot skip the studio logo, and you can't skip the "piracy is illegal"
warning, but you can skip everything else.
It's a bit like the old argument over TV adverts. Some people skip 'em,
but many TV channels couldn't exist without those adverts.
>> Emphasis "yet"...
>
> I don't see the channels used for pirate content becoming any more
> mainstream, you still need to be "in the know" to find where to get such
> stuff, and there's always the risk you'll get caught and sent a fine
> and/or blocked by your ISP. And the more popular such places become, the
> more likely they are to get shut down.
Think of a film. Any film. Now search YouTube and see how many
full-length copies of it you can find in 0.2 seconds.
> As of today DRM is apparently the best solution.
That would explain why all the big music sites are how shouting and
cheering that they offer DRM-free downloads.
Oh, wait...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 22/01/2011 06:22 AM, Neeum Zawan wrote:
> scott<sco### [at] scott com> writes:
>
>>>> Surely they are not all wrong?
>>>
>>> That's a rather weak argument, isn't it?
>>
>> Well they surely have a lot more information than most of us do on the
>> subject, plus they are forced by shareholders to make profit, so it
>> seems unlikely they took the decision to invest in and use DRM without
>> some thought.
>
> Your argument essentially is: "Smart people. Trust them."
It's not as if it's unusual for large corporations to behave in
irrational and/or counter-productive ways. The fact that lots of them
use DRM could be "wishful thinking" more than any actual proof of
effectiveness.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On 21/01/2011 11:43 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 23:26:31 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 21/01/2011 11:12 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:12:42 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>>
>>>> [graphic "BANG!"]
>>>
>>> LOL
>>>
>>> That would explain the hearing loss. ;-)
>>>
>>>
>> What did you say :-P
>
> I dunno. ;-)
>
But I thought...
--
Regards
Stephen
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Florian Pesth wrote:
> Under certain conditions it is legal to copy
> parts of a work for educational purposes
Even in the USA, this is true. It's called "fair use."
For example, if you want to quote something that someone said in order to
criticize it or parody it, that's "fair use" and copyright does not restrict
you.
However, we have also had cases where teachers would collect several dozen
articles from magazines and journals, photocopy them for each student, and
bind them into a book for class. This is obviously using them as a textbook,
not critiquing them, so that's illegal.
> But because of this we pay a small fee on any
> medium or recording device (according to wikipedia 17 cent on a blank DVD
> disc and 9.21 Euro on a DVD Burner)
I have heard this is the case in the USA, but it doesn't get itemized so I
never found out if it's true. However, I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do
with "fair use" and entirely to do with the recording companies bribing our
legislators.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> It's not as if it's unusual for large corporations to behave in
> irrational and/or counter-productive ways. The fact that lots of them
> use DRM could be "wishful thinking" more than any actual proof of
> effectiveness.
I suspect that people are looking at what's best for the "corporation"
instead of what's best for the management. What's best for the management is
to make the shareholders happy. If the large shareholders don't do the
proper research and simply insist the management institutes DRM[*], that's
what's going to happen, even if the management knows it's a bad idea, as
long as it's not so obviously a bad idea that the management gets fired for
listening to the shareholders.
I.e., it's about the story, just like the TSA is about the story, even if
both are essentially ineffective.
[*] "People are copying our music! We must do something!"
"DRM is something."
"We must do DRM!"
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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Am Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:44:47 -0800 schrieb Darren New:
> For example, if you want to quote something that someone said in order
> to criticize it or parody it, that's "fair use" and copyright does not
> restrict you.
That's what I was thinking. It seems similar in the US (even though I'm
not sure about the difference in the details it seems the purpose is the
same). It seems stricter in the netherlands though, if I read andrel
correctly. For this copy in germany you don't need to get permission from
the copyright holder. I guess also that no teacher here tried to make his
own books as the publishing houses are pretty powerful here and if there
is not enough money it is more likely the parents have to pay for the
school books (it depends on the part of germany but I read that where I
went to school up to one third of the books has to be bought by the
parents).
>> But because of this we pay a small fee on any medium or recording
>> device (according to wikipedia 17 cent on a blank DVD disc and 9.21
>> Euro on a DVD Burner)
>
> I have heard this is the case in the USA, but it doesn't get itemized so
> I never found out if it's true. However, I'm pretty sure it has nothing
> to do with "fair use" and entirely to do with the recording companies
> bribing our legislators.
In germany there is a large organization collecting money from this and
distributing it to the "creators". In principle anyone can register at
this organization and claim money, even if you have a private webpage and
"create content" this way. It pays only for the big guys though (I think
they start paying with 1500 unique page visits for a single page each
month or something like that.
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Florian Pesth wrote:
> It seems stricter in the netherlands though, if I read andrel
> correctly. For this copy in germany you don't need to get permission from
> the copyright holder.
The "Kinko's" case is the one I actually looked at in school:
http://www.wsubooks.com/store1/wichita/copyright.htm
> In germany there is a large organization collecting money from this and
> distributing it to the "creators". In principle anyone can register at
> this organization and claim money, even if you have a private webpage and
> "create content" this way. It pays only for the big guys though (I think
> they start paying with 1500 unique page visits for a single page each
> month or something like that.
That's cool. Here, I think it goes to the same group that charges fees for
playing music on the radio. There's a law here that says you can play any
music you want for $X/play, and that music goes to some specific company
that then redistributes it to the copyright holders. That way, each radio
station doesn't have to set up a deal with each music studio.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
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On 21-1-2011 10:05, Invisible wrote:
> On 20/01/2011 04:04 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> Invisible wrote:
>>> not sure that's a good assumption.
>>
>> It has been a very successful business model.
>
> It has been difficult to almost infeasible to duplicate content
> (depending on type, of course). That's one of the main reasons that
> specialised "publishers" needed to exist in the first place. It takes a
> lot of equipment to, say, print a book.
>
> Digital content is another matter...
>
>> It's not obvious it always
>> is or will continue to be so, but so far, lots of people have made it
>> work, and lots of people haven't.
>
> Apparently some people think I'm weird because I still buy all my music
> on CD. What can I say? I like holding the physical object in my hands,
> looking at the cover art, and being able to play it on a real hi-fi
> system (i.e., not my PC).
I also buy the CD's but I don't like the physical objects. They take up
too much space and I can't find them when I need one. Basically the only
thing that I do with them is rip them immediately after I bought them.
Cover art can be nice but is too tiny for my old eyes as are the lyrics.
I like Loreena McKennit, when you buy a cd from her she'll let you
download an MP3 version immediately. I have no idea why Amazon does not
do that too.*
Also my MP3 library is almost clear (some thing have stuck in it that I
got from friends to listen to, but I do clean those up when I find
them.) People do find this weird but respect in general my choice (their
reaction is often similar to the one I get when they find out I don't
drink alcohol).
I am still looking for a model that allows me to support an artist that
I like directly. Perhaps if they let me buy the record that has not been
made yet?
There is also the problem of finding an artist if I don't yet know
her/him. What seems to be missing from the whole IP debate is the role
of the person that recommends the music/book/fashion. These people are
vital, but how do we pay them for sifting through the bulk of mediocre
stuff? crosslinking and matching peoples taste partly solves it, but it
is no real substitute for a DJ or the record shop owner with a
encyclopaedic knowledge. (note to self, check if Cees Siekerman is still
in business).
*) other than 'people find it hard to think straight'.
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