Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> At this point, I'm pretty upset and frustrated. I'm left once again
> wondering just what the hell I need to do to even reach the interview stage.

I was able to reach the interview stage quite a few times.  I've never got past
it, though.  That's why I got a job at the government:  if you pass the
technical exam, you're in.  No silly dilly-dallying about your life or your
clumsyness.

It gets easier talking in the phone as you age.  You realize it's never as
formal and serious as you think it is.  Be more of yourself and less of a drone
-- just remember this advice comes from someone who never got past an interview.
:P

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nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> I was able to reach the interview stage quite a few times.  I've never got past
> it, though.  That's why I got a job at the government:  if you pass the
> technical exam, you're in.  No silly dilly-dallying about your life or your
> clumsyness.

  Job interviews are a curious phenomenon. As far as I know, a significant
portion of job interviews being performed out there could be considered,
more or less, total failures at achieving what they are supposed to achieve.

  Often interviewers are just outright incompetent at it. And this even if
the interviewer *is* an expert in the field (which is not a given). That's
because many such people are very poor at judging others' competence. Thus
it happens often that people who could be perfect for the job are dismissed
because of irrelevant things (eg. if the person being interviewed is nervous
about the interview) or because the interviewer is incapable of seeing that
the person might not be the best in the field *at that moment*, but he could
be a person who is a good learner and could get acquinted with the job quite
fast (for example, the interviewee might have never programmed for a certain
platform, but he could learn to do so rather efficiently in just a few weeks
and then be better than most people already in the company).

  And that's assuming the interview questions themselves are competent.
Often the questions are very poor, test the wrong things or don't test
anything useful or relevant at all.

  This causes for many competent people, people who could actually boost
the productivity of the company quite significantly, to be dismissed, and
also for incompetent people to get hired, for the sole reason that they
happened to convince the interviewer.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:

>   This causes for many competent people, people who could actually boost
> the productivity of the company quite significantly, to be dismissed, and
> also for incompetent people to get hired, for the sole reason that they
> happened to convince the interviewer.

Ah. You've worked for my company then? The company where the entire 
management staff were hired on their ability to spout 
impressive-sounding power-words rather than actually, you know, manage 
things?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:12:21 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> Ah. You've worked for my company then? The company where the entire
> management staff were hired on their ability to spout
> impressive-sounding power-words rather than actually, you know, manage
> things?

This might come as a bit of a shock to you, but your company is not 
unique in that occurrence. ;-)

I've worked for a couple companies that had managers like that.  In fact, 
it's probably more fair to say that all of the companies I've worked for 
have had at least 1 manager who had no clue....

Jim

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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Warp wrote:

> >   This causes for many competent people, people who could actually boost
> > the productivity of the company quite significantly, to be dismissed, and
> > also for incompetent people to get hired, for the sole reason that they
> > happened to convince the interviewer.

> Ah. You've worked for my company then? The company where the entire 
> management staff were hired on their ability to spout 
> impressive-sounding power-words rather than actually, you know, manage 
> things?

  No, but I have heard of actual cases where people with basically no
programming experience have been hired as programmers simply because of
incompetent job interviews. (Apparently these people think that they
could secure the job first, and learn the programming part later because,
you know, programming is easy. Any kid can do it, so why not them?)

  This was especially true in the early 90's, where claiming that you know
how to write computer program automatically made you a guru in the eyes of
management and other people in charge of companies (and who knew absolutely
nothing about how computers work). People in charge have probably wisened
up a bit nowadays, at least in average, but I'm sure it still happens quite
a lot.

  The problem with competent programmers, on the other hand, is that not
very surprisingly they tend to lack in social communication skills, which
makes them look bad in job interviews. Even if they would be more than
perfect for the job and would greatly boost the productivity of the company,
they could easily be dismissed because they can't handle the interview
process very convincingly.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 02/23/10 03:24, Invisible wrote:
> It seems the job I've been pinning all my hopes on isn't going to
> materialise after all. For reasons unknown, the agency isn't going to
> put my CV forward. I can only assume I was too greedy and asked for too
> much money.

	You assume too much. There could be lots of reasons - some not having
to do with you.


-- 
Lisa: Oedipus killed his father and married his mother.
Homer: Who payed for THAT wedding?

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On 02/23/10 03:54, Invisible wrote:
> I'm going to phone them again tomorrow, and hopefully this time I'll
> have grown enough of a spine to make them TELL ME what's actually going on.

	I don't know how recruiting companies work. Are you currently paying
them? If so, and if they don't seem helpful, tell them to close the
account. If not, merely ask why you should try to find a job through
them, with perhaps a hint that you don't want to continue with them (if
they're being vague with you).

	Don't take my advice too seriously unless someone else here mirrors it
- as I said, I don't know much about such companies.

	As for having trouble speaking on the phone: I used to have that
problem. I'd get stuck even ordering pizza. It helps to prepare certain
phrases in advance - both generic ones and specific to this current job
issue. When trying to ask something, you may have trouble finding a
segway where they'll allow you to speak on that particular topic. So
just prepare saying something (before you call) like "OK. I'm having a
bit of trouble understanding how this process works..." and then proceed
to say what you need to say. It's fairly easy making that statement
pretty much anywhere in the conversation.

	It took me a while (perhaps a few years) of preparing for conversations
like these before calling before I didn't have to do so any more.

	Also, it helps if you don't care too much. I mean, at worst, you won't
be any worse off than you were before.

	Just don't say anything abusive/insulting, which I assume you wouldn't
do anyway...


-- 
Lisa: Oedipus killed his father and married his mother.
Homer: Who payed for THAT wedding?

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"Neeum Zawan" <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote in message
news:4b848fb0$1@news.povray.org...

> issue. When trying to ask something, you may have trouble finding a
> segway

How long were you waiting to segue that in? <g>

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"Orchid XP v8" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:4b8452c3$1@news.povray.org...

> Ah. You've worked for my company then? The company where the entire
> management staff were hired on their ability to spout
> impressive-sounding power-words rather than actually, you know, manage
> things?

Why do you assume spouting impressive-sounding power-word is not a big part
of managing things? And I'm not being sarcastic. Being a manager requires
different qualities than being a labourer (of body or mind). Whether
labourers appreciate those qualities or not is besides the point; such
qualities work for what they do.

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>> Ah. You've worked for my company then? The company where the entire
>> management staff were hired on their ability to spout
>> impressive-sounding power-words rather than actually, you know, manage
>> things?
> 
> Why do you assume spouting impressive-sounding power-word is not a big part
> of managing things?

If you're a salesman, being able to sound impressive is probably very 
important.

If, on the other hand, your job is to make strategic decisions on how to 
run the company's UK site, then the ability to spout enough BS to 
convince management that the current disaster somehow isn't your fault 
MAY allow you to hang on to your job, but will do nothing to prevent you 
making mistake after mistake.

Management *does* require different skills. Being able to make things 
look better than they are is only a very small part of that. A much, 
much bigger part is

- Having some clue how the thing you're in charge of actually operates.

- Knowing what options are open to you.

- Understanding what impact your past decisions have had, and having 
some idea what impact future decisions could have.

None of these have anything at all to do with impressive talking.

And yet, management consistently hire managers who talk with arrogant 
over-confidence and promise them the Earth and the stars out of the sky, 
rather than somebody who has a clue.

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