nemesis wrote:
> I take it you just used wordstar far more than Blender.

No. They just laid out the keyboard very mnemonically.

> ctrl+e = Edge tools menu
> u = texture Unwrap
> x,y,z = self evident axis
> s = scale
> r = rotate
> g = grab

See, anyone else would have called that "translate".

> e = extrude
> h, shift+h, alt+h = hide operations

Great. Which is which?  ;-)

> and so on.  I think it's pretty logical.  

Well, when you list *only* the logically named keys, sure. Granted, blender 
does a lot more than wordstar did, but that doesn't mean it's just as easy.

> What is ilogical is expecting 
> someone not used to visual 3D modelling knowing what extrude or unwrap 
> means...

Hey, don't get pissy at *me* - I'm not the one arguing its useless. I just 
said the UI is hard to learn and to remember, which I think you'll find most 
people agree with. In part because it *does* do so much.

I wish Wings3D let you set up keyboard shortcuts for more stuff, because 
that's easy to use but slow because you *have* to go thru the menus.

-- 
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   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
   much longer being almost empty than almost full.

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Invisible escreveu:
> Well no, I mean for example: If you press [space], a whole bunch of 
> stuff appears. I can't immediately see any other way of getting at any 
> of those commands.

They are either in the add item in the top bar or in the select or 
object menu items in the bar immediately below the 3D view.

> Currently my main problem is with figuring out the general principles 
> the UI works under. Stuff like... clicking a menu item makes the menu 
> open, but clicking it again doesn't make the menu shut. Wuh?

left arrow keyboard button.

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Invisible escreveu:
> Well, I don't know. All the other 3D modellers have their quirks, but in 
> all of them, once you've selected the right mode, clicking on a point 
> and dragging it makes it move. (And also any edges and faces associated 
> with it, obviously.) In Blender, this basic operation doesn't seem to 
> work...

click with LMB and drag it around while holding LMB.  I don't know if 
this can be changed, never bothered to find out because it seems just ok 
to me.

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Invisible wrote:
>>> There's no way you can learn this program just by playing with it.
>>
>>     I'd suspect quite the opposite. I've heard the only way to learn 
>> is total immersion - via numerous tutorials. Then you keep working on 
>> Blender building whatever you wanted, and don't ever take a 2 week 
>> break.<G>
>>
>>     Reading isn't going to make the keybindings/interface stick. Using 
>> them a lot (tutorials) will.
> 
> I think knowing the logic behind the interface (assuming there *is* 
> some) will probably help a lot. But sure, if you want to become _expert_ 
> you're going to need to practise a lot. Currently I just can't make it 
> to *anything* interesting, because the UI is getting in the way too much.

Heck. I tried following a tutorial *twice*, just to recreate the 
identical object, and got lost *twice* at one of the steps, resulting in 
an error that was nearly unrecoverable. I agree, the program needs a 
*little* bit of a rethink on some of its parts, especially in trying to 
differentiate between stuff you do in the actual texture/UV window, and 
all the damn settings "for" that, which are plastered every place else, 
but which are not used in actually setting up any of the textures/UV 
settings, when initially applying them. And that is just the start of 
the mess (but a critical one, for what I was trying to get done).

Oh, and what is it with applications that can "unwrap" a mesh to a UV 
map, but do so either using an ugly form that you can't be precise with 
(since all the surfaces have curves that prevent it), or a completely 
flat one, where you can't tell what surface you are *actually* looking 
at? lol Got to be a better way to do that, even if its just "let me 
paint some basic colors on this damn thing, then export the mesh *with* 
the colors, so I can tell what the hell I am doing."

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void main () {

     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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Darren New escreveu:
> Hey, don't get pissy at *me*

I'm not pissy at you.  I'm obviously directing the comments at Orchid.

> just said the UI is hard to learn and to remember, which I think you'll 
> find most people agree with. In part because it *does* do so much.

Yeah, but I was just pointing out there's some easily remembered 
mnemonics to go with each keycombo.

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Invisible wrote:
> Well no, I mean for example: If you press [space], a whole bunch of 
> stuff appears. I can't immediately see any other way of getting at any 
> of those commands.

The "view" and "select" and "object" buttons down at the bottom are menus.

> There's nothing *wrong* with keyboard shortcuts, but it does make the 
> learning curve rather steep.

Yes. Faster to use once you put them in your brain, but harder to learn. 
Unless they're written on the menus, so you learn the ones taht are useful 
to you in particular.

> Currently my main problem is with figuring out the general principles 
> the UI works under. 

That too.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
   much longer being almost empty than almost full.

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On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:07:57 +0100, nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>
> click with LMB and drag it around while holding LMB.  I don't know if  
> this can be changed, never bothered to find out because it seems just ok  
> to me.

Do note that the default is RMB, even though there is a setting to switch  
that.



-- 
FE

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Fredrik Eriksson escreveu:
> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:07:57 +0100, nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>>
>> click with LMB and drag it around while holding LMB.  I don't know if 
>> this can be changed, never bothered to find out because it seems just 
>> ok to me.
> 
> Do note that the default is RMB, even though there is a setting to 
> switch that.

ouch!  True, don't know why I wrote LMB.  RMB is the default to select 
and while holding, also grabbing.

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On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:15:05 +0100, Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom>  
wrote:
>
> Oh, and what is it with applications that can "unwrap" a mesh to a UV  
> map, but do so either using an ugly form that you can't be precise with  
> (since all the surfaces have curves that prevent it), or a completely  
> flat one, where you can't tell what surface you are *actually* looking  
> at? lol Got to be a better way to do that, even if its just "let me  
> paint some basic colors on this damn thing, then export the mesh *with*  
> the colors, so I can tell what the hell I am doing."

Something like this?

http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Doc:Manual/Materials/Vertex_Paint



-- 
FE

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nemesis wrote:
> Darren New escreveu:
>> Hey, don't get pissy at *me*
> 
> I'm not pissy at you.  I'm obviously directing the comments at Orchid.
> 
>> just said the UI is hard to learn and to remember, which I think 
>> you'll find most people agree with. In part because it *does* do so much.
> 
> Yeah, but I was just pointing out there's some easily remembered 
> mnemonics to go with each keycombo.

Sure.  But you have to remember the mnemonics.  Unlike, say, arrow keys, 
which need no mnemonic to remember which is which.  And they're not all 
mnemonics, either, which also makes it difficult.

Plus, the fact that I have to remember D from ctl-D from Shift-D from 
ctl-shift-D and they all do slightly different things? Difficult. But again, 
it's because it does so much.

Also difficult is the number of buttons that influence the behavior of other 
buttons, down in the lower windows, and the lovely labels like "VColPai" 
that are supposed to be informative. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
   much longer being almost empty than almost full.

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