On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:03:03 +0100, andrel wrote:

> So that even excludes living in Whales

Only if your name is Jonah. ;-)

Jim

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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:49:37 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> If I wanted to get a job where I get paid to write stuff in Haskell,
> that would be an unrealistic aim. 

Wrong.  If you wanted to get a job where you are paid to write stuff in 
Haskell in an area where there are no such jobs, *that* would be 
unrealistic.

Fact:  People get paid to write programs in Haskell.

Therefore, saying it's unrealistic for you to get one of those jobs is 
false because you start from a false premise.

> If I wanted to work for Nokia, that
> would be an unrealistic aim. 

Nonsense.  Nokia has jobs that run the entire range of skillsets.

> If I wanted to earn £25,000 a year, that
> would be an unrealistic aim. 

Total bollocks.  If you wanted to earn £25,000 for sitting on your arse 
and doing absolutely nothing, *that* would be an unrealistic aim.  It 
*might* be unrealistic to look for jobs in your area that pay that well, 
too.  But finding a job that pays that outside of MK?  Yeah, you could do 
that, but you're not willing to look outside the immediate area.

> But I don't see why getting a job somewhere
> near to where I live would be an unrealistic aim.

Is there 100% employment where you live?  I'd bet not - so that being the 
case, sure, it's perhaps somewhat unrealistic to think there are more 
jobs than employees in your immediate area.  The fact that you've not 
found anything in the immediate area would seem to belie that fact, in 
fact - and so without expanding your search to a broader area and broader 
selection criteria would be the logical next step.

Jim

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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:49:37 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> I don't know of anybody who moved just to get a job.

I did.  I moved from Minneapolis to Salt Lake City to start a new job.  I 
interviewed for the job before moving (I happened to be in town for a 
conference).

When we move to the UK, I'll be moving partially for a job there as well 
- that's pretty much all lined up now, just a question of "when".  So 
that'll be twice in my life that I'll have done that.

Jim

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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 08:16:08 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> by not wanting to try to get around London on a daily basis.
> 
> The actual nice thing about cities is they tend to be very easy to get
> around. I've never vacationed in a city that I've taken an automobile.
> The paris and london subways (as well as a few in the USA) are really
> all you need, if you're willing to walk two or three blocks or hop an
> occasional taxi cab to go too far towards the edge.

I have found that on places I've traveled to as well - NYC, London, 
Boston, San Francisco, Barcelona - all have pretty good public transit 
systems, and as a tourist there (or being there for work), I've found 
that I could get around fine without a car for the most part.

But particularly with London, I don't know that I'd want to depend on the 
public transit system for my employment - strikes seem to happen fairly 
often (in particular), enough so that I might be concerned (though I know 
most employers will make allowances for that).

Jim

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On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:19:02 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> One of the things I like about MK is that it has a road network that was
> *designed*, rather than having to try to fit a road network into a city
> which already exists and wasn't laid out with mass transport in mind.

You'd like Salt Lake City, then. :-)

The streets are mostly laid out on a grid.  If you get an address, it's 
something like "220 West 300 South", which would be about 2.25 blocks 
west of Main Street on the street called "300 South".

Once you get used to it, finding things is really easy here.  Until you 
hit city boundaries, that is - then the street numbers can change.

Jim

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On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:15:29 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>> And yet there are plenty of people in Switzerland who have jobs even
>> like the jobs you and I have.  But you've been there to ski, and that's
>> great - but you should expand your experience a little and not just
>> think of Switzerland as a place to ski, but as a place that people live
>> (and from what I've heard, have pretty good lives).
> 
> It depends on what you like.
> 
> I gather that there are people who actually *like* travelling. People
> who pay to go on round the world cruises. Personally, I'd hate that. But
> that's OK; people are different.

Working someplace isn't the same as vacationing there.  But you know 
that.  And yes, people are different.

I'm trying to point out (and apparently reaching "epic fail" with it) 
that you're forming opinions on places based on, well, nothing.  You 
think you would hate living in Zurich or Geneva based on no actual 
experience at having been there at all.  You make assumptions that the 
people there would treat you as bad or worse than you're treated now, but 
you have zero empirical evidence to suggest that.

> There are people who *want* to live in the south of France, because it's
> very sunny there. Personally, I hate hot weather. It would drive me mad!
> But hey, that's why I'm not moving to the south of France, right?

"Sunny" is different from "hot".  OK, you don't like warm weather; I 
don't particularly like it either.  Maybe you'd like Scotland?  Or 
Norway?  It's not as warm there, in fact can get quite chilly at times of 
the year.  Hell, you'd probably like Minnesota if you like cold, 
especially the northern parts.  Or Canada - you could probably even move 
to Canada with a minimum of fuss.

> And I am completely confident that there are plenty of people who'd
> *love* to live and work in Switzerland. (It would be kind of an empty
> country otherwise...) Doesn't mean I'd like it though.

But as I said you don't seem to have any empirical evidence that says you 
wouldn't like it either.

>>> Well sure, if I go live in London I'm sure there are bucket-loads of
>>> programming jobs. The point is that I don't *want* to ever have to
>>> live in London if humanly possible. What's complicated about that?
>> 
>> You don't have to *live* someplace to *work* there.  My office is 45
>> miles south of me; I go there about once every two weeks or so.
> 
> ...which is about the distance I currently travel too, yes. I'd like to
> *avoid* all this travelling if possible. It's expensive and it's a huge
> waste of my time.

So then if you can't find something closer, then you move somewhere 
that's closer to where you want to work.

When I first moved to Salt Lake City, I lived close to the office.  Then 
my office moved to the other side of town.  I changed jobs and moved 
closer to the office, and then changed jobs to one that has an office 45 
miles from me.  I'm not moving again, but it's OK because I get to work 
from home most of the time now.

So if you want to live near where you work, there are two options:  Find 
a job closer to home, or find a home closer to the job.  If you're 
looking for a new job, then you have the freedom to look anywhere and 
move near the job.  Which means you can find something you'll actually 
*like* doing without the constraints of it being "near home" because 
"home" can be moved.

You're still young (no matter what you think) and unattached.  It's the 
*perfect* time to look for something that really engages your abilities 
and skills and passion and not care particularly *where* it is.

>>> Hell, if I move to Germany, I could hypothetically go work for Native
>>> Instruments. (I mean, if it weren't for the fact that this is
>>> obviously impossible.) But then I'd have to live in Germany, which
>>> would kind of negate the benefits.
>> 
>> I know quite a few people in Germany who would see it different;
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that maybe that's *why*
> they're in Germany? ;-)

Actually, most of them are in Germany because that's where they live and 
they are doing something there that makes them happy.  I also know 
someone who grew up in the Netherlands who works in New Zealand, someone 
who grew up in New Zealand who works in New York, and my younger brother 
grew up in Minneapolis and now lives and works in Osaka, Japan.  I've 
another friend who grew up in Alabama (if I remember correctly) who lives 
and works in Germany.  Shall I continue?  Coworkers who grew up in India 
who live and work in Utah; another who is from Australia who lives and 
works in Utah.

>> and why would it be "obviously impossible" anyways?
> 
> Because ordinary people don't get to work in cool places like that. Only
> special people. I'm not special. (Not that way, anyway...)

Bullshit.  The only people who don't get to work there are those who are 
(a) unqualified, or (b) don't bother to apply because they don't think 
they stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting the job so they don't 
even try.

TRY, DAMMIT!

Jim

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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:07:26 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:41:12 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>> 
>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:53:33 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yay!  We listened to Ep1, and I was wondering when we were finally
>>>> going to get an episode of MC.  Will grab it (should have shown up on
>>>> uknova by now?).
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>> I won’t spoil it for you :)
>> 
>> It was *fantastic*.  I have to admit, Jack Dee is quite good as the
>> chairman - and I didn't think he would be.
>> 
>> 
> Yes I like him now. He sounds as he has the hump ;)

He does - though I do have to admit that Rob Broyden is making me wish 
Jeremy Hardy was back - his rendition of "Don't Stop Me Now" last week 
was *awful*.  Then again, nothing's as bad as Jeremy trying to sing, so 
perhaps I should consider myself lucky that Jeremy wasn't there. ;-)

Jim

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>> If I wanted to get a job where I get paid to write stuff in Haskell,
>> that would be an unrealistic aim. 
> 
> Wrong.  If you wanted to get a job where you are paid to write stuff in 
> Haskell in an area where there are no such jobs, *that* would be 
> unrealistic.
> 
> Fact:  People get paid to write programs in Haskell.

Yes. In the entire world, there are approximately 50 of them, I would 
estimate.

>> If I wanted to work for Nokia, that would be an unrealistic aim. 
> 
> Nonsense.  Nokia has jobs that run the entire range of skillsets.

OK, so I could probably get a job as a receptionist for Nokia. I guess I 
should have specified more clearly...

>> If I wanted to earn £25,000 a year, that would be an unrealistic aim. 
> 
> Total bollocks.  If you wanted to earn £25,000 for sitting on your arse 
> and doing absolutely nothing, *that* would be an unrealistic aim.  It 
> *might* be unrealistic to look for jobs in your area that pay that well, 
> too.  But finding a job that pays that outside of MK?  Yeah, you could do 
> that, but you're not willing to look outside the immediate area.

I would think my level of skill and experience would be a far bigger 
problem. It's not exactly like I live in some small village in the 
middle of nowhere...

>> But I don't see why getting a job somewhere
>> near to where I live would be an unrealistic aim.
> 
> Is there 100% employment where you live?

Is there 100% employment anywhere in the entire country? (Or indeed, in 
*any* country, anywhere in the world?) Of course not.

> so that being the 
> case, sure, it's perhaps somewhat unrealistic to think there are more 
> jobs than employees in your immediate area.

Of course, because if an area doesn't have 100% employment, then it is 
impossible to get a job. Oh, wait... so how come people all over the 
world do exactly this every single day?

> The fact that you've not 
> found anything in the immediate area would seem to belie that fact, in 
> fact - and so without expanding your search to a broader area and broader 
> selection criteria would be the logical next step.

Or rather, "I'm looking for the wrong kind of job". Clearly there aren't 
any programming jobs around here, so I should look for something else.

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>> It depends on what you like.
>>
>> I gather that there are people who actually *like* travelling. People
>> who pay to go on round the world cruises. Personally, I'd hate that. But
>> that's OK; people are different.
> 
> Working someplace isn't the same as vacationing there.  But you know 
> that.  And yes, people are different.
> 
> I'm trying to point out (and apparently reaching "epic fail" with it) 
> that you're forming opinions on places based on, well, nothing.  You 
> think you would hate living in Zurich or Geneva based on no actual 
> experience at having been there at all.

Of course. Because I've never been to Geneva. Oh, wait - actually yes, 
yes I have. :-P

> You make assumptions that the 
> people there would treat you as bad or worse than you're treated now, but 
> you have zero empirical evidence to suggest that.

No, it's more that I find foreigners intimidating. That being the case, 
it's not a good idea to deliberately surround myself with them.

>> There are people who *want* to live in the south of France, because it's
>> very sunny there. Personally, I hate hot weather. It would drive me mad!
>> But hey, that's why I'm not moving to the south of France, right?
> 
> "Sunny" is different from "hot".  OK, you don't like warm weather; I 
> don't particularly like it either.  Maybe you'd like Scotland?

I imagine that would be far too cold. But yeah, I get your point.

>> And I am completely confident that there are plenty of people who'd
>> *love* to live and work in Switzerland. (It would be kind of an empty
>> country otherwise...) Doesn't mean I'd like it though.
> 
> But as I said you don't seem to have any empirical evidence that says you 
> wouldn't like it either.

Apart from having spent several weeks in Switzerland? And that doesn't 
count because...?

I mean, it's nice to go play with the snow and everything, but I'm 
always very relieved to get back home again afterwards. I wouldn't want 
to never return home ever again.

> So if you want to live near where you work, there are two options:  Find 
> a job closer to home, or find a home closer to the job.

Agreed.

> If you're 
> looking for a new job, then you have the freedom to look anywhere and 
> move near the job.  Which means you can find something you'll actually 
> *like* doing without the constraints of it being "near home" because 
> "home" can be moved.
> 
> You're still young (no matter what you think) and unattached.  It's the 
> *perfect* time to look for something that really engages your abilities 
> and skills and passion and not care particularly *where* it is.

I don't think it's feasible for me to get an enjoyable job. Let's face 
it, nobody is going to pay me to sit around geeking out over monadic 
combinator libraries. They're going to pay me to get a job done, no 
matter how boring it turns out to be.

One of the careers advisors I spoke to suggested that with my skill set 
I should maybe look at financial modelling. I looked around, and did 
find a job. First, the job was based in London. Second, they demand a 
PhD. Not negotiatable. I guess if I had really amazing grades from my 
degree I could argue that they should at least look at me... but I don't.

Let's be real here. You want to be a programmer? Why should I hire you? 
There are other programmers out there. Programmers who can do C and C++. 
Programmers who understand cache coherence and can cope with 
little-endian data (mis)representation. Programmers who won't get bored 
and do something unrelated every five minutes.

You wanna be a technical writer? Other people can write. And most of 
them write a damned site better than you. They can express themselves 
clearly, they can FREAKING SPELL, and they can type faster than you. Why 
should we hire you?

You wanna do something with maths? Other people have a real, formal 
mathematical education. With certificates and grades to prove it. Who 
are you trying to kid?

You want to design digital logic? We have engineering graduates who have 
been *actually doing* this stuff for, like, the last 8 years. Why should 
be hire some guy who's read about it in a book when we have a queue of 
people who have done it for real?

I need to be realistic about what work it is actually possible for me to 
get. I'm never going to be a software architect or a document writer. 
These jobs are few and far between, and there are plenty of people far 
more qualified than I am already competing for them. I need to look at 
jobs I might actually be able to get - and I doubt location makes a huge 
difference to that.

> Actually, most of them are in Germany because that's where they live and 
> they are doing something there that makes them happy.  I also know 
> someone who grew up in the Netherlands who works in New Zealand, someone 
> who grew up in New Zealand who works in New York, and my younger brother 
> grew up in Minneapolis and now lives and works in Osaka, Japan.  I've 
> another friend who grew up in Alabama (if I remember correctly) who lives 
> and works in Germany.  Shall I continue?  Coworkers who grew up in India 
> who live and work in Utah; another who is from Australia who lives and 
> works in Utah.

Like I said, some people *like* to travel. I don't.

>>> and why would it be "obviously impossible" anyways?
>> Because ordinary people don't get to work in cool places like that. Only
>> special people. I'm not special. (Not that way, anyway...)
> 
> Bullshit.  The only people who don't get to work there are those who are 
> (a) unqualified, or (b) don't bother to apply because they don't think 
> they stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting the job so they don't 
> even try.
> 
> TRY, DAMMIT!

I've tried applying to Wolfram. (They specifically requested 
applicants.) I applied to some bluechip on the M25. I've applied for 
just about every Haskell-related job going in the UK. Want to take a 
guess how many of these people even bothered to reply?

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> No, it's more that I find foreigners intimidating. That being the case, 
> it's not a good idea to deliberately surround myself with them.

As I've said before, IME the variation of people within a particular country 
is far greater than the variation between countries.  IOW there will be 
plently of like-minded people you will get on fine with in *any* country, 
you're just as likely to find intimidating people in the UK as you are 
abroad.  There are a lot of non-UK people here in this forum, do you find 
them all intimidating?

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