The largest ISP in Finland decided to shut down their usenet server
because of lack of usage. It seems that it was the *only* server in
Finland which is open to the customers of that ISP (me being one of them)
as well as a huge bunch of customers of other smaller ISPs. There are
closed usenet servers here and there, but with very restricted access
(usually universities). So no luck there.

  So I'm suddenly cut off completely from usenet. Well, except for google
groups, but I would really like to use Thunderbird.

  Does anyone know of good, open usenet servers which I could use (ie.
accessible from Finland)? Ones which allow posting? I tried making a
google search but it seems a bit hopeless.

  I suppose google groups could be a last resort, although I'm not very
thrilled with the prospect.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
>   Does anyone know of good, open usenet servers which I could use (ie.

There are a few that are for-fee, for $5/month or some such.  My ISP shut 
down newsgroups a while ago too, but I never signed up for anything myself.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

Post a reply to this message

>  Does anyone know of good, open usenet servers which I could use (ie.
> accessible from Finland)? Ones which allow posting? I tried making a
> google search but it seems a bit hopeless.

About 5-10 years ago I started looking for the same, because the ISP we were 
using had no news server.  There are a few that are free, but they come and 
go and are certainly not reliable, luckily I still have this link in my 
favourites, you might be able to find something here:

http://www.newsparrot.co.uk/

In the end I just gave up, the groups I frequented died out as people moved 
to web-based forums and most posts seemed to be spam.  As Darren said, if 
you really need it then the best bet would be to pay a small fee and have 
fast, reliable access.

Post a reply to this message

scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> In the end I just gave up, the groups I frequented died out as people moved 
> to web-based forums

  Why do people do that?

  With usenet you don't need any accounts and passwords, and you can
subscribe to "forums" with any topic in existence, and use them all
with the same program without having to jump between any web pages.

  With web-based forums you have numerous completely different forums
with different addresses, you need an account and password for each one
of them.

  Every time you need to ask a question about a topic you have never
before dealt with (eg. about some new program you are trying), you can
simply search for the proper usenet group and ask there. No hassle, no
creating accounts, no confirming emails. Just go there and ask. It's
that simple. With web-based forums you always have to go through the
hassle of creating a new account for that one single question you had.

  Also there probably exist about one thousand *different* web-based
forums related to a specific topic (the more the topic is popular).
Which one are you going to choose? In usenet there's usually one or two
popular groups for a specific topic, and everyone in the world will
participate in them.

  For example, comp.lang.c++ is a rather active group where you can
actually get some real help if you have some problem about the language,
and where you can help others, ask questions, and so on. Which web-based
forum would be equivalent to that? I'm sure there are quite many of them,
most of them with something like 5 users. Which one would be the best
alternative to comp.lang.c++?

  This trend of everything going to WWW just sucks. Most internet users
don't actually know that there's something *else* than WWW out there.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:28:17 -0400, Warp wrote:

> scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
>> In the end I just gave up, the groups I frequented died out as people
>> moved to web-based forums
> 
>   Why do people do that?

Because the content they want is only available in web-based forums.

The lack of authentication typical of USENET means that many groups are 
just full of spam now.

I don't disagree with you that moving everything to WWW is a bad idea, 
but unfortunately, you and I don't get to make that decision for everyone.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
>> In the end I just gave up, the groups I frequented died out as people moved 
>> to web-based forums
> 
>   Why do people do that?

Because for ISPs, newsgroups are a cost, whereas for forums, they're either 
Not My Problem if it's on someone else's server, or a source of revenue if 
it's ad-supported, or you paying for only exactly the forums you want otherwise.

Plus, of course, you don't get users screaming at you that you dropped 
mega-post 19 of 47 of the latest blu-ray DVD rip.

>   This trend of everything going to WWW just sucks. Most internet users
> don't actually know that there's something *else* than WWW out there.

I agree.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

Post a reply to this message

On 10/07/09 12:28, Warp wrote:
> scott<sco### [at] scottcom>  wrote:
>> In the end I just gave up, the groups I frequented died out as people moved
>> to web-based forums
>
>    Why do people do that?

	SPAM SPAM SPAM.

	And archives.

	And moderation.

	The only benefit of newsgroups is the ability to use your client of 
choice.

	Also, when my university dropped USENET newsgroups, they had a really 
good explanation. The way newsgroups are structured, it takes a lot of 
maintenance on the university's side to keep the connection up and reliable.

>    With usenet you don't need any accounts and passwords, and you can
> subscribe to "forums" with any topic in existence, and use them all
> with the same program without having to jump between any web pages.

	True. Which also lets me pose as you.

>    With web-based forums you have numerous completely different forums
> with different addresses, you need an account and password for each one
> of them.

	True in reality, but need not be the case in principle. The web forum 
folks never came up with a common protocol.

	As with all the others, I do agree that web forums suck. But the wild 
west attitude of USENET newsgroups make them suck.

	The best system I ever worked with was the various BBS networks 
(Fidonet, etc). Much better than USENET, much better than web groups, 
much better than mailing lists...

-- 
"Modem," said the gardener when he'd finished the lawn...

Post a reply to this message

>> In the end I just gave up, the groups I frequented died out as people 
>> moved
>> to web-based forums
>
>  Why do people do that?

I think they are better for many reasons:
1) You don't need access to a usenet server
2) No spam, or very little spam that usually gets deleted
3) They are usually way better organised into sub- and sub-sub-forums, 
rather than just a huge list of threads
4) Moderators often move, merge or delete threads that are put in the wrong 
place, or ask already-asked questions.  This makes searching/browsing much 
easier
5) On some forums moderators often change the subject line to make searching 
easier, obviously this makes searching easier
6) "Sticky" threads always appear at the top of the list with things like 
the FAQ and anything else related to the subject
7) Many other useful functions like chatting/messaging directly with another 
user, seeing how many posts they've made, seeing how many people have read 
your post, etc.
8) More flexibility in presentation of posts, eg including images in certain 
places, text effects etc
9) Everyone gets the same experience by default, none of this "oh you need 
to turn on monospace fonts" or "don't top post you idiot" or "this is NOT a 
binary group" or "fix your line-wrap" or "DO NOT USE HTML" or "don't quote 
his entire post and add one word to the end" from all the net nannies that 
patrol every usenet group.

>  With usenet you don't need any accounts and passwords,

Which means lots of spam.

>  With web-based forums you have numerous completely different forums
> with different addresses, you need an account and password for each one
> of them.

You don't have a favourites folder to put the addresses in?  You can always 
use the same password for each forum, or tell your browser to remember the 
password.

>  Every time you need to ask a question about a topic you have never
> before dealt with (eg. about some new program you are trying), you can
> simply search for the proper usenet group and ask there.

And then be told to read the group's FAQ (how are you meant to know where 
that is beforehand?) or to search for the answer.  With a forum there will 
usually be a FAQ thread at the top of each sub-forum, and maybe even a 
"Newbies read this first" thread if you're lucky.

>  For example, comp.lang.c++ is a rather active group where you can
> actually get some real help if you have some problem about the language,
> and where you can help others, ask questions, and so on.

I tried to find a group for DirectX on usenet, and even on MS Communities 
(the MS usenet server) but none were particularly active compared to the web 
forums I found.

> Which web-based
> forum would be equivalent to that? I'm sure there are quite many of them,
> most of them with something like 5 users. Which one would be the best
> alternative to comp.lang.c++?

Googling "C++ forum" gives me codeguru.com which seems to be pretty active 
(861 users online when I checked).

>  This trend of everything going to WWW just sucks. Most internet users
> don't actually know that there's something *else* than WWW out there.

The only thing usenet is good for is being able to use it at work because it 
looks like you're just writing lots of emails to people and not that you're 
wasting time browsing the web :-)

Take pov.general for instance, there is a *huge* amount of very useful 
information in there, wouldn't it be great if it was organised into 
sub-categories like texturing, lighting, CSG etc, each with some FAQs for 
each sub category, with images included *at the right place* in the posts, 
and subject lines like "cubic meshes", "constructing a geometry", "mesh2" 
and "fractals.inc" renamed to something meaningful to help when 
browsing/searching?

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Warp wrote:
> > scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> >> In the end I just gave up, the groups I frequented died out as people moved 
> >> to web-based forums
> > 
> >   Why do people do that?

> Because for ISPs, newsgroups are a cost, whereas for forums, they're either 
> Not My Problem if it's on someone else's server, or a source of revenue if 
> it's ad-supported, or you paying for only exactly the forums you want otherwise.

  I didn't ask why ISPs are dropping support. I asked why people are moving
from a more versatile medium to a more restricted one.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Warp schrieb:

>> In the end I just gave up, the groups I frequented died out as people moved 
>> to web-based forums
> 
>   Why do people do that?

I'd guess it's primarily not so much an issue of people actively 
/moving/ from usenet to web-based forums, but rather /new/ folks never 
moving to usenet in the first place (heck, who of the newest generation 
of internet users /knows/ about usenet anyway?), and nobody replenishing 
the user base of usenet. So it's "Fading away".

>   This trend of everything going to WWW just sucks. Most internet users
> don't actually know that there's something *else* than WWW out there.

Exactly. But for them it doesn't suck, because they don't know better.

There's also some benefit to it, too: You don't need different 
/software/ to access it. All you need is your web browser.

Post a reply to this message