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From: Sabrina Kilian
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 18 Aug 2009 15:52:15
Message: <4a8b066f$1@news.povray.org>
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Neeum Zawan wrote:
> On 08/18/09 09:22, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>> I thought it was implied that between that detail, and the insectoid
>> appearance of the aliens, that the audience was meant to think of them
>> as having an insect style hierarchy of minds.
>
> Except that they're continually referred to as prawns, and I suspect
> prawns don't behave that way (and prawns aren't insects).
>
> For that matter, I suspect most insects don't either.
>
> And your last statement is getting to why I think it's poor SF. They
> were expecting us to assume something that most mature SF fans wouldn't
> assume. If they'd used literal giant ants, then it's more
> understandable. Even the Arachnids in Starship Troopers made more sense
> (and the movie had more explicit indications of their behavior).
>
> Over here, they show an alien creature that looks like a prawn, but
> we're supposed to assume it has a certain behavior that is neither
> human-like or prawn-like.
>
I think the prawn part just skipped by me, because it seemed to be more
of a pejorative name than all the descriptive. Maybe I am just haven't
eaten enough prawns.
> Put another way, it isn't the *only* thing one could assume. One
> could as justifiably have assumed a totally different behavior, based on
> other cues in the movie.
>
I didn't say it was well implied. There was one other comment, I think
one of the 'experts' called them workers. It was very vague and I don't
think I can defend it for that.
I went in expecting less of a hard science fiction film, and something
more art house, so I was expecting to work at piecing little clues
together. I asked a friend if he thought the alien speech was based on
any particular African language, or just made up, which garnered a very
odd look as the only response.
Of course, on the art film level, it made a few points that I really
hope were just accidental and resulted from them aiming for something
sci-fi-like. I mean, a movie about apartheid where the victims are
'workers' caste with only one leader left to rescue them?
As just a summer movie, I liked it. It had a nice enough blend of
artsy/sci-fi/action to hit a matinee for. As anything other than that,
eh, I know when the school year starts up again I am going to be hearing
a lot about this movie.
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From: Kevin Wampler
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 18 Aug 2009 16:20:01
Message: <4a8b0cf1$1@news.povray.org>
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Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> I think the prawn part just skipped by me, because it seemed to be more
> of a pejorative name than all the descriptive. Maybe I am just haven't
> eaten enough prawns.
>
>> Put another way, it isn't the *only* thing one could assume. One
>> could as justifiably have assumed a totally different behavior, based on
>> other cues in the movie.
>>
>
> I didn't say it was well implied. There was one other comment, I think
> one of the 'experts' called them workers. It was very vague and I don't
> think I can defend it for that.
For what it's worth I got exactly the same worker class interpretation
that you did from the movie, but it retrospect it did seem to be more
implied than made explicit. I actually sort of like this aspect to the
movie though since I think a too many explanations would have detracted
from the realism (since there's not much of a way that the humans in the
movie could have known about the alien class/species structure anyway).
Overall, this was my favorite SciFi movie since Children of Men came out
a few years ago, although I did also enjoy Moon. I'll be curious to see
how well it ages since opinions seem pretty split on it currently.
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From: Neeum Zawan
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 18 Aug 2009 18:46:22
Message: <4a8b2f3e$1@news.povray.org>
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On 08/18/09 14:52, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> I think the prawn part just skipped by me, because it seemed to be more
> of a pejorative name than all the descriptive. Maybe I am just haven't
> eaten enough prawns.
Well, it _was_ pejorative, but it chosen because it was descriptive. In
the documentary scenes in the beginning, one person points out that they
look like prawns, and hence the name stuck.
> Of course, on the art film level, it made a few points that I really
> hope were just accidental and resulted from them aiming for something
> sci-fi-like. I mean, a movie about apartheid where the victims are
> 'workers' caste with only one leader left to rescue them?
Well, you're getting to why I'm complaining. Using aliens to make a
movie about how humans treat others is a bad idea from the beginning -
unless they put in the effort to do it *really* well (which is possible,
I believe).
Otherwise, I could come up with all kinds of reasons why the aliens
should be afforded good treatment, but not my fellow human beings, and I
could do likewise for the converse. The subtleties are important.
> As just a summer movie, I liked it. It had a nice enough blend of
> artsy/sci-fi/action to hit a matinee for. As anything other than that,
> eh, I know when the school year starts up again I am going to be hearing
> a lot about this movie.
Oh - I liked it too. Good action and acting, at the very least. I just
felt that were it not for these issues, it would be more than just a
good movie. As it is, I like it more for the action than for its
attempts at deeper depictions.
I simply view it as a movie that could have been phenomenal, but ended
up not being so because of issues that could have easily been fixed. In
a sense, it's a sloppy movie.
--
"Carpe Dentiem ... Seize the teeth!"
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From: Chambers
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 18 Aug 2009 21:46:47
Message: <4a8b5987$1@news.povray.org>
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Kevin Wampler wrote:
> For what it's worth I got exactly the same worker class interpretation
> that you did from the movie, but it retrospect it did seem to be more
> implied than made explicit. I actually sort of like this aspect to the
> movie though since I think a too many explanations would have detracted
> from the realism
From what I understand, there was a great deal more to the backstory
(in fact, I read some of it in the few previews I looked at) that was
simply implied rather than shown in the film.
On the one hand, I like that the implications add a level of subtlety.
On the other hand, certain things really needed explaining to avoid the
issues brought up in this thread.
> Overall, this was my favorite SciFi movie since Children of Men came out
Ooh, that was a good one, too!
Does it seem to anyone else that there's a dearth of good sci fi lately?
...Chambers
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 23 Aug 2009 19:04:40
Message: <4a91cb08$1@news.povray.org>
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> Up to that point, it wasn't clear that the humans were simply being nasty
Yes, because burning the eggs and describing the sounds as "popcorn" wasn't
a give-away. :-)
> - it may well have been that the
> aliens psyche was dangerous to humans, and they needed to be cordoned off.
And clearly vice-versa, yes.
> I went in expecting less of a hard science fiction film
It wasn't very hard science. Indeed, I'd *almost* say it's barely science
fiction at all. I liked it a lot, tho.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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From: Neeum Zawan
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 23 Aug 2009 20:25:29
Message: <4a91ddf9@news.povray.org>
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On 08/23/09 18:04, Darren New wrote:
>> Up to that point, it wasn't clear that the humans were simply being nasty
>
> Yes, because burning the eggs and describing the sounds as "popcorn"
> wasn't a give-away. :-)
I guess we're using different meanings for nasty.
If your house is full of mosquitoes that bite you, and you take
pleasure in destroying them, are you a nasty person?
>> - it may well have been that the aliens psyche was dangerous to
>> humans, and they needed to be cordoned off.
>
> And clearly vice-versa, yes.
Yes, but we're not on their planet.
--
Dragons - the ORIGINAL flying toasters!
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 23 Aug 2009 21:38:20
Message: <4a91ef0c$1@news.povray.org>
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Neeum Zawan wrote:
> On 08/23/09 18:04, Darren New wrote:
>>> Up to that point, it wasn't clear that the humans were simply being
>>> nasty
>>
>> Yes, because burning the eggs and describing the sounds as "popcorn"
>> wasn't a give-away. :-)
>
> I guess we're using different meanings for nasty.
>
> If your house is full of mosquitoes that bite you, and you take
> pleasure in destroying them, are you a nasty person?
Granted. But I don't think there was any support in the movie for the aliens
actually being a threat like that. I felt the author/director/whatever was
clearly trying to show the humans having zero care for what the aliens might
want or think. I mean, murdering babies is clearly *intended* to show the
humans aren't especially nice.
I loved the later scenes, with the main guy threatening to take
"Christopher's" kid away if he doesn't agree to the relocation. That just
felt so ... bureaucratic.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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From: Neeum Zawan
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 23 Aug 2009 23:28:39
Message: <4a9208e7$1@news.povray.org>
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On 08/23/09 20:38, Darren New wrote:
>> If your house is full of mosquitoes that bite you, and you take
>> pleasure in destroying them, are you a nasty person?
>
> Granted. But I don't think there was any support in the movie for the
> aliens actually being a threat like that. I felt the
Sure there was. The documentary scenes in the beginning suggested
terrorist attacks (derailed train was one of them, I think).
And even if I grant your point, so what? There wasn't any support for
the aliens actually being harmless either. I'm willing to give humans
the benefit of the doubt, but not to aliens when I know nothing about
them (and which the movie didn't tell me much about until quite a bit
later). The presumption of innocence, IMO, shouldn't be taken as a given
for nonhuman species.
Rereading that paragraph, I'm finding trouble getting my point through.
I'm not suggesting paranoia of the aliens. I'm not stating that it's OK
to be nasty to aliens that visit the Earth from the get-go. All I'm
saying is that 20 years have passed, and they've given us *very* little
information about that time period. For all I know, the humans may well
be justified in treating the aliens the way they do.
> author/director/whatever was clearly trying to show the humans having
> zero care for what the aliens might want or think. I mean, murdering
> babies is clearly *intended* to show the humans aren't especially nice.
No, them enjoying it and making fun of it showed that they were not
nice. The mere fact that they were killing the babies didn't suggest
that, though.
Why is killing the alien babies (who were all illegal, BTW) wrong? How
do I know the aliens weren't merely pests whose babies should be killed?
I don't until much later.
As I said earlier, I can't take it for granted that human rights should
extend to them. It needs to be established.
> I loved the later scenes, with the main guy threatening to take
> "Christopher's" kid away if he doesn't agree to the relocation. That
> just felt so ... bureaucratic.
Oh yeah - those were the aspects that would have made the movie a great
one if they had plugged all the holes I'm pointing out. The whole
interaction between the humans and the aliens was brilliant - but the
message only hits home once you realized that they shouldn't be treated
that way.
Still, I feel if they're going to have aliens that are more or less
like humans except for their appearance...what's the point? It would
have been more interesting if the aliens _did_ have fundamental
differences in behavior, and the story had been more about the lack of
willingness on the part of the humans to accomodate them.
--
How do frogs die? Ker-mit suicide.
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 23 Aug 2009 23:46:29
Message: <4a920d15$1@news.povray.org>
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Neeum Zawan wrote:
> Sure there was. The documentary scenes in the beginning suggested
> terrorist attacks (derailed train was one of them, I think).
I interpreted those as being stuff blamed on the aliens that the aliens
didn't do. Maybe I'm just more cynical.
> And even if I grant your point, so what? There wasn't any support
> for the aliens actually being harmless either.
You're interpreting it from the point of view of "what if this was real?"
I'm interpreting it from the point of view of "this is a hollywood movie, so
what would the fictional portrayal include if ....?"
> For all I know,
Sure. I'm just saying that given it's a movie, if there was a reason to
believe it, they probably would have made it more clear. Again, I might just
be more cynical.
> No, them enjoying it and making fun of it showed that they were not
> nice. The mere fact that they were killing the babies didn't suggest
> that, though.
Granted.
> Why is killing the alien babies (who were all illegal, BTW) wrong?
Generally, killing babies is frowned upon, even for domestic non-food
non-humans.
> As I said earlier, I can't take it for granted that human rights
> should extend to them. It needs to be established.
Certainly. I'm just looking at it from the POV of it being a movie, while
you're looking at it from the POV of "what if this were actually real?"
I.e., I'm assuming that the movie would tell you what's important, while
you're assuming there might be information that would change your mind about
the situation were it available.
> message only hits home once you realized that they shouldn't be treated
> that way.
I think I realized that early on. I tend not to get sucked into this sort of
movie so much that I miss the cinematography of it.
> Still, I feel if they're going to have aliens that are more or less
> like humans except for their appearance...what's the point? It would
> have been more interesting if the aliens _did_ have fundamental
> differences in behavior, and the story had been more about the lack of
> willingness on the part of the humans to accomodate them.
It certainly could have been a better movie, yes. It would be wildly
different, and actually science fiction if they did.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Understanding the structure of the universe
via religion is like understanding the
structure of computers via Tron.
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From: Neeum Zawan
Subject: Re: Anyone else here seen District 9 yet? *SPOILERS*
Date: 24 Aug 2009 02:22:56
Message: <4a9231c0$1@news.povray.org>
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On 08/23/09 22:46, Darren New wrote:
> Neeum Zawan wrote:
>> Sure there was. The documentary scenes in the beginning suggested
>> terrorist attacks (derailed train was one of them, I think).
>
> I interpreted those as being stuff blamed on the aliens that the aliens
> didn't do. Maybe I'm just more cynical.
Oh sure. The whole documentary scenes have multiple interpretations.
That's one of them. Another is that they were simply responding to poor
treatment. Another is that they did this unprovoked. All interpretations
lead to different ethics. Given that, I had to suspend judgment.
>> And even if I grant your point, so what? There wasn't any support for
>> the aliens actually being harmless either.
>
> You're interpreting it from the point of view of "what if this was
> real?" I'm interpreting it from the point of view of "this is a
> hollywood movie, so what would the fictional portrayal include if ....?"
Which is why I said that it sucks from a true SF perspective (or I
think I said it here - maybe elsewhere). Hollywood rarely makes a good
SF movie, from a SF reader's perspective.
Otherwise, sure. A good action movie with good acting. ;-)
>> Why is killing the alien babies (who were all illegal, BTW) wrong?
>
> Generally, killing babies is frowned upon, even for domestic non-food
> non-humans.
Not if they're potential pests. Heck, in places like Wyoming, people
justifiably kill coyotes - including the cubs (or whatever you call
them). Coyotes are on the rise, and are one of the few large animals
that are thriving with the human population. They end up attacking too
many animals on farms.
--
How do frogs die? Ker-mit suicide.
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