Darren New wrote:
> Warp wrote:
>>   Is it true that there are "closet atheists" in many parts of the US?
> 
> Yes. Lots of places, especially in the south (known as the "bible belt") 
> there will be tremendous discrimination against atheists, to the point 
> of being harassed out of town. (I don't know about "many parts," mind. 
> Just the very religious parts.)

Yes the "south" is swamp of hatred, ignorance, stupidity, peopled by 
benighted morons
who are capable of the most heinous crimes for religion or any other 
reason. Why don't y'all
enlightened, rational, and wise folk who know us so well just flood us 
with nerve gas and
improve the human race!

(No icon I know is applicable here.)
David

Post a reply to this message

David H. Burns wrote:

> 
> (No icon I know is applicable here.)

On second thought is there one, for complete disgust?

Post a reply to this message

David H. Burns wrote:
> Probably, but how real are their fears. There are certainly a lot of 
> "practicing atheists"
> (i.e people who live as if they believed nothing) who don't see to be 
> especially "discriminated
> against". I have a friend who is definitely an atheist and makes no 
> secret of it. He claims to
> be discriminated against, but I've seen no sign of it. The best concrete 
> evidence he has been
> able to give me is that people invite him to church or try to "convert" 
> him. He believes in, or claims
> to believe in, all sorts of "Christian" conspiracies from the White 
> House under Bush to the
> management where he works, though he seems to have been above average in 
> receiving the
> credit, honor, and promotion due him for his excellent work.
> 
Your friend may be somewhat correct about some of it too, but no, sounds 
like he is just worried about the cases he knows about in other parts of 
the US. There is a reason why the ranks have doubled in the past 5-6 
years, and its not because twice as many people just "happened" to 
deconvert. Its because there is a perception, often fairly correct, that 
you *will* run into problems if people know. In point of fact, I would 
say that maybe 2-3 people at my job may suspect, my family knows, maybe 
1-2 friends, but this is a city that, the years I moved here, actually 
had a book burning planned. I have no idea what effect it would have, 
but given that I have seen all of two cars, out of hundreds, showing 
anything not overtly Christian, and one of those was a Californian on 
vacation, I don't think the result would be positive. And, this is in 
Arizona. There are states in the US that, in contradiction to the US 
constitution, deny atheists the run for public office. There are some 
schools that have tried, and succeeded, at running the local *known* 
atheist family out of town, when it was merely "suspected" that they 
where not Christian, due to a refusal to pray before a ball game. There 
are top level people in the government, who in candid moments, have all 
but declared that they would prefer a Satanist over and atheist, because 
it least the former admitted god was real, and Bush, who ordered some 
things removed from things like public health sites, and replaced with 
abstinence links, who created new, and imho, illegal means to support 
"faith based", which means almost entirely Christian, programs, and in a 
speech actually went as far as suggesting that *maybe* atheists should 
lose citizenship rights. This isn't Europe. Some people here are not 
merely annoyed by, or uncomfortable with, atheism, they **hate** it, 
would like to see it banned, if they could, and people *have* lost jobs, 
friends, etc. over the discovery that they where one.

We are the new "gay movement". Everything wrong with society is our 
fault, supposedly, even when its the religious people that came up with 
the ideas that screwed things up, and we are all plotting, according to 
entire counties, in some cases, to erase religion, somehow. They want 
us, out of sight, out of mind, unwilling to speak, and accommodating to 
everyone, and there are entire books being written by various clowns in 
the US about how it "hurts our cause", to actually point out that we 
don't believe religion, why, and by being *willing* to express anger at 
certain ideas, and actions, instead of playing nice with the liberal 
Christians, in the hope they all grow back bones, and actually stop 
voting for dishonest, ignorant, superstitious, or just plain stupid, 
people all the time, because they claim high levels of piety.

Hell yes there are "closet" atheists in the US. Its 90% of the people in 
that category, including the "accomidationists", who think, despite 200 
years of evidence otherwise, that you can make progress, by quietly 
sitting at the side lines, mouthing prayers you don't believe in, (like 
I do every time I have to attend some family gathering with the god 
botherers in my own near relatives), and not saying anything about how 
silly the whole mess is, or pointing out when some idea, generated from 
it, is dumb, counter productive, or actually likely to have the 
*opposite* results, and you have clear facts to prove it. Most of us 
will either a) not attend things that we *have to* pretend at, b) 
pretend, to play nice to people we don't want to hurt, or c) pretend all 
the time, because we know that there *are* people in our lives that 
would ruin us, if they knew about it. Which one you are, and often even, 
to what degree, and when, depends on if you recognize there *are* others 
that can support you, whether those people are any where near you at all 
(i.e., don't move to most of the south eastern states), and how big a 
risk you think it is to admit it. Some places, its almost no risk at 
all, others... there are still places you might not make it out alive, 
if you also make the mistake of pissing off the local wackos while 
admitting it.

Nah.. The one guy a while back that was found beat to death by rednecks 
in one of those states was obviously a total coincidence, never mind the 
fact that he had *recently* annoyed the local city council by admitting 
being an atheist, and the last recorded case of such a beating in the 
area was 50 years or more ago, to a black man... Total coincidence...

-- 
void main () {

     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> Warp wrote:
>>   Is it true that there are "closet atheists" in many parts of the US?
> 
> Yes. Lots of places, especially in the south (known as the "bible belt") 
> there will be tremendous discrimination against atheists, to the point 
> of being harassed out of town. (I don't know about "many parts," mind. 
> Just the very religious parts.)
> 
> And of course many young adults who are atheist but don't want to cause 
> a problem with their family.
> 
> Of course, most places aren't like that, but when the evangelicals wind 
> up being 75% of the population, you wind up having nobody in authority 
> who will stand up for you, which is really the problem. I.e., when the 
> school board, most of the police force, all the judges, and all the 
> teachers think atheism is a sign of the devil, it's hard for a kid to 
> complain they shouldn't be praying in grade school.
> 
They are not 75% of the population, well.. except in the south. The 
problem is, they are 75% of the electorate. :( For some reason, 
religious people will ignore "everything" about a candidate, as long as 
they babble about how faithful and "family values" they are... Drives me 
nuts.

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:
> I think atheists can probably get along 99% even in the worst areas if 
> they just STFU and let the majority have their way, instead of 
> complaining about prayer in school and "In God We Trust" on government 
> buildings and such.
> 
Ah, yes. Jews should do the same, and Pagans, and well.. pretty much any 
and all non-Christians that have been attacked, slandered, defamed, 
driven out of town, or otherwise harassed, for pointing out "exactly" 
the same things. The problem is, its a damn simplistic bit of advice, 
given that none of these things are being posted to show off how 
Christian the locals are, its being done to promote revisionist history, 
distort the playing field, so people are more likely to allow more 
extreme things, and, when successful, is pointed to as an example of our 
"Christian nation, which therefor means that gay marriage, real sex 
education, evolution, fact based medicines, secular programs, secular 
education, which doesn't have a specific religious agenda, and just 
about everything else, is the 'true way things should work'". Its real 
simple, if you can't conquer some place, then rewrite the history, just 
rewrite the history, and be as loud as possible, in hopes that you can 
win, before the ones that are not falling for it react to the problem.

You do know, BTW, that, "In God We Trust", was invented by "precisely" 
the sort of ignorant twit that we currently have trying to claim that 
the public education system, which is mandated in the constitution under 
the rights and requirements of a state, to enter the union, i.e., not 
even an amendment, but the original document, is unconstitutional? 
Seems, some overly pious guy working for the mint was unaware that "E 
Pluribus Unum" was **already** the national motto, so opted to make up 
his own, and some other equally clueless fool went, "Ah, OK, sounds 
good, lets start putting it on all the money!" Joked a while back on a 
blog, "So, when is it they are going to finally replace the original EPU 
motto, and replace it with, 'Yo Football!', again?", in response to some 
of this wonderful revisionism they love to do. They claim to be 
protecting the nation. Their real goal is to do everything possible to 
reinvent it, and its history, to create a defacto state religion, 
legally, without having to break the law, by declaring it directly.

If this wasn't their goal, and some of them where not stupid enough to 
actually admit it to their followers, because they know those followers 
want such a thing, no one would have a single problem with this sort of 
things. But.. its telling that they back down 90% of the time, when its 
suggested that "other" documents should stand beside the ten 
commandments, or someone suggests that a comparative religion course in 
a school would be OK, but not one slanted in favor of Christianity, or, 
anything else that would let them do these things, without implying, 
suggesting, or demanding acceptance, of the idea that Christianity *is* 
the national religion for some reason other than its unfortunate popularity.

And, your right, we spent 200 years "not" challenging such things. In 
that time we went from a nation with where 90% of the population 
couldn't read, but the ones that did *knew* their Bibles, and most of 
them where heavily invested in religion (accept for some of the ones 
that read it), to one where everyone can read, but 90% of the country 
doesn't bother to understand anything past what the preacher tells them, 
most don't read anything challenging, even the well educated people are 
dumb as bricks, too often, outside their own narrow expertise, and 
people are **actually** claiming that the facts taught in Civics classes 
for the last 200 years, about the founders, their ideals, the meaning of 
the constitution, and its intent, and even, sometimes, like the case of 
the moron in Texas claiming that public education isn't constitutional, 
confusing documents, or insisting that the ones they obviously 
***haven't even read***, say the complete opposite of what they do say.

We kept quiet, watched the march of progress, oohed and awed over all 
the discoveries and advances made in our technology and skill at making 
things, and spent a lot of time telling the few of our number that spoke 
up and said, "But... look at how stupid some of these people are!", to 
shut the hell up, because it would upset the magic Utopia that was just 
around the corner, where everyone had equal access to all information, 
and the time and means to get at it. Its not *almost* that universal. 
And the result... Instead of unlimited access to things that can tell 
people how the real world works, you get pure idiocy like timecube.com, 
conservapedia.com, and an **endless** collecting of religious sites, all 
babbling stuff that neither the founders, nor a half dead goat herder, 
sitting 5 miles away, during one of their Jesus' supposed speeches, 
would have believed.

We tried being nice. We are not the **worst education** people on the 
planet, outside of the Middle East, and even then, some of the places 
over there may be better off, our colleges can't admit 90% of the high 
school graduates without remedial courses, and even the ones that pass 
those, can't afford the rest, in most cases, or graduate *still* 
believing things that are completely *wrong* based on the courses they 
just took. You don't need to rent the movie Idiocracy, all you have to 
do is go to the nearest Bible thumper neighborhood, and listen to the 
gibberish they say about how everything around them works, including, in 
some cases, the nearly paranormal, and insane theories about how stuff 
they *buy* in stores work, or get made.

And, there are people, who have used the, "be nice, play friendly, and 
kiss ass at every opportunity, even if you have to lie 90% of the time 
to do it", crowd, who have gotten elected to 80% of the positions in one 
political party, and too many in the other as well, especially in 
*local* areas, who actually believe that the solution to every problem 
in the US is to get rid of more of the fact based 'atheist' education, 
programs and laws (everything that isn't theologically driven is atheist 
to them), and replace them with stuff that even liberal Christians know 
is total bullshit (but, of course, according to these same people, such 
Christians are not *real* Christians, so their opinion doesn't count, 
except when they need to kiss ass, to get reelected).

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

Post a reply to this message

David H. Burns wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Warp wrote:
>>>   Is it true that there are "closet atheists" in many parts of the US?
>>
>> Yes. Lots of places, especially in the south (known as the "bible 
>> belt") there will be tremendous discrimination against atheists, to 
>> the point of being harassed out of town. (I don't know about "many 
>> parts," mind. Just the very religious parts.)
> 
> Yes the "south" is swamp of hatred, ignorance, stupidity, peopled by 
> benighted morons
> who are capable of the most heinous crimes for religion or any other 
> reason. Why don't y'all
> enlightened, rational, and wise folk who know us so well just flood us 
> with nerve gas and
> improve the human race!
> 
Much simpler. You can just succeed again. I understand someone in Texas 
actually suggested this recently, but.. They seem to recently be 
importing some of their real kooks from Nebraska, or some place. Latest 
one is a global warming denier, who basis this on a 500 year old map, 
showing Antarctica as the size of Africa, or bigger, complete with 
rivers and lakes. Those of us getting a good laugh at it wondered if he 
also found proof of "dragons" or "sea monsters" when examining it. lol

But, no. There are small pockets of sane in those states. And, sadly, 
most of the people in them seem to be in general denial of how screwed 
up and backward the rest of the state *actually* is, based on 
descriptions from people that lived/live in them and don't share the 
local predilection for shear crazy.


-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

Post a reply to this message

"Mike Raiford" <"m[raiford]!at"@gmail.com> schreef in bericht 
news:4a719598$1@news.povray.org...
> Sometimes, just reading the stories makes me wonder ... maybe God is the 
> evil one ... I mean, he basically sent the Jews on a wild goose chase... 
> :)

If you are in for a bit of SF, you should read Philip Pullman's "His Dark 
Materials" trilogy (Northern Lights; the Subtle Knife; The Amber Spyglass). 
Very entertaining and proposing an interesting view on the nature of God.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

On 1-8-2009 16:16, David H. Burns wrote:
> Probably, but how real are their fears. There are certainly a lot of 
> "practicing atheists"
> (i.e people who live as if they believed nothing) 

I strongly object to that. Atheists believe (i.e. know) that no God 
exists. You do have people who believe nothing, but they are not 
referred to as atheists nor agnostics for that matter.

Post a reply to this message

Thomas de Groot wrote:
> Very entertaining and proposing an interesting view on the nature of God.

I found these to be tedious and silly, myself. It wasn't an interesting view 
on the nature of God, IMO. There was still all the unexplained supernatural 
nonsense with a token toss of "science" into the mix.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
    back to version 1.0."
   "We've done that already. We call it 2.0."

Post a reply to this message

Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> I think atheists can probably get along 99% even in the worst areas if 
>> they just STFU and let the majority have their way, instead of 
>> complaining about prayer in school and "In God We Trust" on government 
>> buildings and such.
>>
> Ah, yes. Jews should do the same, and Pagans, and well..

I didn't say they *should*. I said they *can*. I.e., in contrast with being 
black 100 years ago, where you couldn't avoid the racism by faking it.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
    back to version 1.0."
   "We've done that already. We call it 2.0."

Post a reply to this message