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Tim Attwood wrote:
> I'm sure enough people have noticed the similarity to find
> citations via Google.
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-to.sragow13mar13,0,3736906.story
That's, I guess, a nice link from a "credible" source. Thanks.
> Still, it probably belongs in the critics section...
Yeah, I tried it but it got deleted again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Incredibles&oldid=290239216#Critics
I just said it shared many similarities to the plot of Watchmen. But is
well known, nazis don't read.
> There's no telling what Brad Bird thought, or when he thought it.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_subconscious
> Comics often get pretty close to archetypes, that's just how it is.
> It'd be more surprising if the monsters didn't have tentacles =P
How about outlawed super-heroes? It's been told and retold ever since
Watchmen, not before it. It's in The Incredibles, Hancock and possibly
more...
As Alan Moore himself noticed: "The gritty, deconstructivist postmodern
superhero comic, as exemplified by Watchmen, also became a genre."
http://www.avclub.com/articles/alan-moore,13821/
> Still, I've heard enough stories about writers having their
> stories stolen by producers in Hollywood to think that
> probably is what happened with The Incredibles.
I heard before of a french author of child books claiming his book about
a little clown-fish called Pierrot was adapted into Nemo without his
consent. Now I'll be more weary of Pixar "story-first" approach...
> DC comics or the original writers probably had grounds
> for a lawsuit, but that would have soured their relationship
> with Hollywood for other projects, like the Watchmen film.
Indeed.
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nemesis wrote:
> There was no plot like that before Watchmen. None at all.
But there were plenty before Incredibles. Maybe Incredibles had inspiration
from batman or the bible. (I mean, superman *does* get nailed up in the end
of the bible, ya know?)
>> Mysterious island is a kind of obvious place to put out-of-the-way evil for
>> land-dwelling species. Citation: at least three or four Bond movies, for
>> example, as well as King Kong.
>
> Yes, Bond is a reference in both The Incredibles and Watchmen. Watchmen's
> Adrian Veidt was a caped crusader until retiring and becoming a wealthy
> businessman. His early-Bond villain attire is noted, like his lynx pet and
> enjoyment of ancient civilizations. Very Dr. No.
So maybe Incredibles took that from Bond, not Watchmen. See?
> I didn't say it was straight similar. I said both did it to feel heroic about
> the act of saving the world. Feeling heroic about it doesn't require publicity
> about it.
Perhaps.
> Yes, but the point is: why The Incredibles had copy-cat all these same choices
> of staple fantasy/scifi literature as Watchmen?
I'm saying that lots and lots of staple fantasy/scifi written before
Watchmen had these same elements.
>> If you're going to compare two plots, you have to compare all the major
>> points, not just the ones that match.
>
>> Watchmen: there's a hunt for the bad guy. Incredibles: there isn't.
>
> Come again?
Nobody goes looking for the bad guy in Incredibles. I don't know how else to
describe it. Nobody is hunting for the bad guy.
>> Watchmen: they're normal people. Incredibles: they aren't.
>
> Most obvious deviating plot. Watchmen set out to be a "realistic" super hero
> comic book. No such need in an animation.
No such need in a comic book either. I think you may have missed the entire
point of Watchmen, which was basically "what happens when a normal person
tries to be heroic?" Remember the whole pirate ship subplot?
>> Watchmen: lots of internal moral conflict. Incredibles: little to none.
>> Watchmen: Rape. Incredibles: No rape.
>
> Family movie.
No. No need for it given the plot. Incredibles wouldn't have been improved
by the inclusion of a rape that was left out to make it PG.
>> Watchmen: Prison break. Incredibles: No prison break.
> Sure there's a prison break in Incredibles.
Breaking out of the bad guy's prison? I don't know that counts. I don't
remember breaking out of the real authority's prison.
>> Watchmen: Cancer. Incredibles: No cancer.
> What about that mutating kid? Sure does not sound healthy in the long term...
Hmmm. I don't remember a mutating kid, but it's been a while since I saw the
movie. Or do you mean the baby at the end? That's just his super power.
>> Watchmen: Thermonuclear annihilation. Incredibles: No nuclear bombs.
>
> No bombs detonated in Watchmen, thanks to Veidt's intervention. One bomb
> detonated by Bomb Voyage in Incredibles.
I should have said "potential thermonuclear annihilation" but it wouldn't
fit on one line. :-)
>> Watchmen: Bad guy gets away with it. Incredibles: Bad guy gets caught.
>
> Rorschach's journal is sent to a right-wing publication prior to going to
> Ozymandias fortress. Not seen, but "bad guy" is caught in the act indeed.
Maybe. It's clearly left up in the air.
>> Watchmen: No babies kidnapped. Incredibles: Babies kidnapped.
> Worse: children murdered.
Errr, in which?
>> Watchmen: Disfunctional families. Incredibles: Happily married families.
> Sure. It's a family movie.
It's not like he left out the disfunctional family part to make it a family
movie. It was a family movie whose plot wouldn't be advanced in any way by
the presence of disfunctional families.
>> Watchmen: Good guy main character is insane psychopathic killer.
>> Incredibles: No insane psychopathic killers.
>
> Prior to trying with Mr. Incredible, Syndrome had killed several past heroes
> while bettering Omnidroid. That's pretty psychopathic to me.
Nope. That's just murder. Soldiers aren't psycopathic.
> There's no bad guy in Watchmen, just human beings and dubious moral choices.
Yep. That was kind of my point in the list. They're completely different
movies.
>> To me, they seem like completely different movies,
>
> Watchmen is not a movie.
Fine. They seem like completely different stories. Watchmen the book was
even *more* different from Incredibles than Watchmen the movie.
> The finale is also very different from the comic book and the long fight with a
> villainous Ozymandias completely unnecessary and dork.
That was actually in the book, except that Oz won by being smarter instead
of faster.
> He has no super-powers as the movie pictures it.
Well, he *does* catch a bullet in the book, etc. It's overdone in the movie,
tho, yes.
> The Incredibles or Watchmen? your choice...
Interesting. But as I say, if you also leave out the differences, it's a
little easier to line them up. It's not like you're talking Romeo vs West
Side Story here.
Put it this way. I don't think Bird said "Hey, let's make a movie that's
just like Watchmen, only cheery and family friendly!"
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 01:55:13 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> The fact is that the plots are too damn similar and it should be listed
> there, encyclopedically.
You misunderstand the point of an encyclopedia, because the fact is that
"similar" is not sufficient.
Jim
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 08:38:54 -0700, Chambers wrote:
> On 5/15/2009 7:12 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Star Wars, The Belgariad, and Dune, and Magician:Apprentice (and its
>> sequels) all have a common plot - the world is in trouble and then
>> saved by a messiah character. That doesn't mean they were inspired by
>> the Bible (or that any of their authors read the Bible or were even
>> inspired by it).
>
> Actually, I saw an interview with George Lucas once where he pretty much
> stated that Star Wars was inspired by the Bible. His whole point in
> making it was, "What if Jesus turned bad?" Of course, it took him more
> than 20 years to really finish the whole story, but that's beside the
> point...
I could believe that.
Jim
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 14:16:05 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> But is
> well known, nazis don't read.
I call Godwin's law. Again.
Hint: If you want to be taken seriously, don't engage in name calling.
Jim
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nemesis wrote:
> The Incredibles or Watchmen? your choice...
Your plotline doesn't really match Watchmen, or Incredibles.
Watchmen didn't have super-heros abounding - they were normal people, except
for Jon, who doesn't exactly Abound. The government rules them out for
different reasons, and those reasons motivate the remaining heroes
differently. In Watchmen, there are people living normal lives, some in
undercover activities, and some working for the government. In Incredibles,
nobody "discovers" a malign plan hidden on an island- Mr Incredible is
invited to participate in the plan and does so unwittingly. In Incredibles,
nobody goes investigating any conspiracy to kill super heroes - nobody knows
they're dead until Mr Incredible finds the bodies. Rorschach isn't tortured,
he's locked in prison. It isn't "Fellows" who free Mr Incredible, but his
family.
You left out all the things in the movies that make them different, as well.
Like, the whole theme of good vs bad, the moral of the story, the
motivations, the personalities, and everything else that makes Incredibles a
child's movie and Watchmen an adult's movie. You left out the coming-of-age
bit with the kids, the turning of the loyalties of the kid's henchwoman in
Incredibles, etc.
Or are you saying it would be difficult to write a plot summary for Watchmen
that shares *nothing* with the plot summary above?
Altho I will say, unlike some here, you *do* seem to be able to admit you
*might* be a little bit wrong, or at least that there might be multiple
perspectives, or I wouldn't have even bothered this far. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospam com> wrote in message
news:4a0e4160@news.povray.org...
> On Fri, 15 May 2009 20:32:40 -0600, somebody wrote:
>
> > I know and care less than nothing about either the Incredibles or
> > Watchmen, but my 2 cents says the text above reads very much like an
> > argument, not as an encyclopedic entry. Maybe that's the contention.
> > It's not an encyclopedia's job to make a point (and no, some bad
> > examples from Wikipedia don't change this rule) but to document well
> > established points. If you have a reference, only a single sentence
> > should suffice.
>
> Well stated - we've found something to agree on. :-)
That feels so... wrong.
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On Sat, 16 May 2009 12:24:44 -0600, somebody wrote:
>> Well stated - we've found something to agree on. :-)
>
> That feels so... wrong.
You said it...Damnit, another thing we agree on. ;-)
Jim
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Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> There was no plot like that before Watchmen. None at all.
>
> But there were plenty before Incredibles. Maybe Incredibles had
> inspiration from batman or the bible.
There are no outlawed heroes nor huge squids in either Batman or the Bible.
> (I mean, superman *does* get
> nailed up in the end of the bible, ya know?)
What does that even mean? Yes, I know you're referring to Jesus. And I
know Superman is kind of a jewish messiah interpretation. Just that
what you say has no meaning in the context of this dialog.
>> Yes, but the point is: why The Incredibles had copy-cat all these
>> same choices
>> of staple fantasy/scifi literature as Watchmen?
>
> I'm saying that lots and lots of staple fantasy/scifi written before
> Watchmen had these same elements.
Yes, but not the very same and in the same order as they appear in
Watchmen. That constitutes a plot.
>>> Watchmen: Good guy main character is insane psychopathic killer.
>>> Incredibles: No insane psychopathic killers.
>>
>> Prior to trying with Mr. Incredible, Syndrome had killed several past
>> heroes
>> while bettering Omnidroid. That's pretty psychopathic to me.
>
> Nope. That's just murder. Soldiers aren't psycopathic.
Syndrome is not a soldier and his alias should be enough to see he has
problems. He was plainly hunting past heroes to feed his Omnidroid robots.
>> There's no bad guy in Watchmen, just human beings and dubious moral
>> choices.
>
> Yep. That was kind of my point in the list. They're completely different
> movies.
Except with a similar plot.
>
>>> To me, they seem like completely different movies,
>>
>> Watchmen is not a movie.
>
> Fine. They seem like completely different stories. Watchmen the book
> was even *more* different from Incredibles than Watchmen the movie.
No, it was more equal, since in the movie they replaced the monster in
the end for another threat. Perhaps they thought the audience would
remember The Incredibles? That can't be: there's no heroic attempt to
fight the monster anyway.
>> The Incredibles or Watchmen? your choice...
>
> Interesting. But as I say, if you also leave out the differences, it's a
> little easier to line them up. It's not like you're talking Romeo vs
> West Side Story here.
I guess you can't trace a similar parallel between the plots for Matrix
and The Incredibles.
> Put it this way. I don't think Bird said "Hey, let's make a movie that's
> just like Watchmen, only cheery and family friendly!"
He set out to make a movie about super-heroes. He had to draw some
references. How about the plot of one of the most acclaimed comic books
in the genre? How about also some references to some heroes from the
antagonist publishing house, Marvel? Fantastic Four is perfect, as they
already are a family core. Couple that with some Bond espionage and a
cheery mood and you have a win...
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 16 May 2009 14:16:05 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>> well known, nazis don't read.
>
> I call Godwin's law. Again.
>
> Hint: If you want to be taken seriously, don't engage in name calling.
I don't know how else to state it. They allow references for Fantastic
Four, but the simple idea that the plot is similar to that of Watchmen
isn't allowed, nor in the discussion page.
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