nemesis wrote:
> There was no plot like that before Watchmen.  None at all. 

But there were plenty before Incredibles. Maybe Incredibles had inspiration 
from batman or the bible.  (I mean, superman *does* get nailed up in the end 
of the bible, ya know?)

>> Mysterious island is a kind of obvious place to put out-of-the-way evil for
>> land-dwelling species. Citation: at least three or four Bond movies, for
>> example, as well as King Kong.
> 
> Yes, Bond is a reference in both The Incredibles and Watchmen.  Watchmen's
> Adrian Veidt was a caped crusader until retiring and becoming a wealthy
> businessman.  His early-Bond villain attire is noted, like his lynx pet and
> enjoyment of ancient civilizations.  Very Dr. No.

So maybe Incredibles took that from Bond, not Watchmen. See?

> I didn't say it was straight similar.  I said both did it to feel heroic about
> the act of saving the world.  Feeling heroic about it doesn't require publicity
> about it.

Perhaps.

> Yes, but the point is:  why The Incredibles had copy-cat all these same choices
> of staple fantasy/scifi literature as Watchmen?

I'm saying that lots and lots of staple fantasy/scifi written before 
Watchmen had these same elements.

>> If you're going to compare two plots, you have to compare all the major
>> points, not just the ones that match.
> 
>> Watchmen: there's a hunt for the bad guy. Incredibles: there isn't.
> 
> Come again?

Nobody goes looking for the bad guy in Incredibles. I don't know how else to 
describe it. Nobody is hunting for the bad guy.

>> Watchmen: they're normal people. Incredibles: they aren't.
> 
> Most obvious deviating plot.  Watchmen set out to be a "realistic" super hero
> comic book.  No such need in an animation.

No such need in a comic book either. I think you may have missed the entire 
point of Watchmen, which was basically "what happens when a normal person 
tries to be heroic?"  Remember the whole pirate ship subplot?

>> Watchmen: lots of internal moral conflict. Incredibles: little to none.
>> Watchmen: Rape. Incredibles: No rape.
> 
> Family movie.

No. No need for it given the plot. Incredibles wouldn't have been improved 
by the inclusion of a rape that was left out to make it PG.

>> Watchmen: Prison break.  Incredibles: No prison break.
> Sure there's a prison break in Incredibles.

Breaking out of the bad guy's prison? I don't know that counts. I don't 
remember breaking out of the real authority's prison.

>> Watchmen: Cancer.  Incredibles: No cancer.
> What about that mutating kid?  Sure does not sound healthy in the long term...

Hmmm. I don't remember a mutating kid, but it's been a while since I saw the 
movie. Or do you mean the baby at the end? That's just his super power.

>> Watchmen: Thermonuclear annihilation. Incredibles: No nuclear bombs.
> 
> No bombs detonated in Watchmen, thanks to Veidt's intervention.  One bomb
> detonated by Bomb Voyage in Incredibles.

I should have said "potential thermonuclear annihilation" but it wouldn't 
fit on one line. :-)

>> Watchmen: Bad guy gets away with it. Incredibles: Bad guy gets caught.
> 
> Rorschach's journal is sent to a right-wing publication prior to going to
> Ozymandias fortress.  Not seen, but "bad guy" is caught in the act indeed.

Maybe. It's clearly left up in the air.

>> Watchmen: No babies kidnapped.  Incredibles: Babies kidnapped.
> Worse: children murdered.

Errr, in which?

>> Watchmen: Disfunctional families. Incredibles: Happily married families.
> Sure.  It's a family movie.

It's not like he left out the disfunctional family part to make it a family 
movie. It was a family movie whose plot wouldn't be advanced in any way by 
the presence of disfunctional families.

>> Watchmen: Good guy main character is insane psychopathic killer.
>>    Incredibles: No insane psychopathic killers.
> 
> Prior to trying with Mr. Incredible, Syndrome had killed several past heroes
> while bettering Omnidroid.  That's pretty psychopathic to me.

Nope. That's just murder. Soldiers aren't psycopathic.

> There's no bad guy in Watchmen, just human beings and dubious moral choices.

Yep. That was kind of my point in the list. They're completely different 
movies.

>> To me, they seem like completely different movies,
> 
> Watchmen is not a movie.  

Fine. They seem like completely different stories.  Watchmen the book was 
even *more* different from Incredibles than Watchmen the movie.

> The finale is also very different from the comic book and the long fight with a
> villainous Ozymandias completely unnecessary and dork.  

That was actually in the book, except that Oz won by being smarter instead 
of faster.

> He has no super-powers as the movie pictures it.  

Well, he *does* catch a bullet in the book, etc. It's overdone in the movie, 
tho, yes.

> The Incredibles or Watchmen?  your choice...

Interesting. But as I say, if you also leave out the differences, it's a 
little easier to line them up.  It's not like you're talking Romeo vs West 
Side Story here.


Put it this way. I don't think Bird said "Hey, let's make a movie that's 
just like Watchmen, only cheery and family friendly!"

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

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