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nemesis escreveu:
> Yes. Or from the command-line via ssh. I remember when I was an emacs
> nut and asked my boss to install emacs on a client server before I could
> do some job there... :P
>
> A while after I realized there was a hell of a lot more in vi than
> simple, dumb line-oriented commands geared at systems admins...
hahaha, just had a good laugh now remembering that occasion: it was a
job to be done remotely in some PHP code in the client, not programming
related, just settings. Job done, all is well. Next day I get to
workplace and my boss is walking around in circles, talking at the
cellphone, typing at a remote terminal, cursing like mad, not
understanding at all why everything stopped working at the client.
Turns out I thought it'd be a good idea, good programming practice, not
to allow globals. So I turned off register_globals or something at
php.ini. :P I then realized it could have something to do with it and
briefly mentioned it to him.
good irresponsible times... :)
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:40:55 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:40:54 +0100, Invisible wrote:
>>
>>> So what is it that Emacs does
>>> that's so awesom? What can it do that Notepad can't?
>>
>> emacs is a religion. Notepad isn't.
>
> Yes, emacs can move mountains. ;)
LOL.
vi can as well, but with lower memory usage. ;-)
Jim
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On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:29:05 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> That's actually still only true for vi (not even vim).
Actually, many distros include vim instead of vi.
Jim
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nemesis <nam### [at] gmail com> wrote:
> A while after I realized there was a hell of a lot more in vi than
> simple, dumb line-oriented commands geared at systems admins...
I'm so accustomed to doing things in the "windows-style" text editing
way (which the emacs option pc-selection-mode mostly provides) and which
only works on X (not on the terminal for the simple reason that the VT
terminal protocol does not support all the necessary key combinations)
that it's difficult to do anything with an editor which only works on
the terminal and thus cannot be configured for those special key
combinations.
Of course when emacs is run on a terminal (rather than X), pc-selection-mode
will obviously not work (because of the terminal limitations) but I can
still use it more or less fluently.
Never having used vi, it's just almost impossible to use for anything.
I once was forced to use it because there just was no other text editor
in that system and I just had to edit a file, and it was next to impossible.
vi doesn't work like a regular text editor, ie. you start it with a file,
edit the file (by moving the cursor and writing text), then exit the file
(which offers you the option of saving the file). Even pico is easier to
use on the first time.
--
- Warp
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On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:36:29 -0400, Warp wrote:
> vi doesn't work like a regular text editor, ie. you start it with a
> file, edit the file (by moving the cursor and writing text), then exit
> the file (which offers you the option of saving the file)
Huh? That's exactly how I use vi.
Jim
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Mueen Nawaz <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote:
> OK. Who let the vi guy in the Emacs thread?
Oops. I stepped out for a minute, but it seems they took over for me. That was
a close one.
- Ricky
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Warp wrote:
> Never having used vi, it's just almost impossible to use for anything.
> I once was forced to use it because there just was no other text editor
> in that system and I just had to edit a file, and it was next to impossible.
> vi doesn't work like a regular text editor, ie. you start it with a file,
> edit the file (by moving the cursor and writing text), then exit the file
> (which offers you the option of saving the file). Even pico is easier to
> use on the first time.
Oh, I see you're pulling an Andrew: you don't care to learn the
emacs/vi way, so you bash it.
I was a pretty advanced emacs user and thought exactly the way you just
described: it felt like a very alien line-oriented simplistic tool fit
only for the needs of configuration file editing.
That was until I went out of my way to discover why so many people
seemed to enjoy it just as much as emacs and -- just wait for it! --
_actually sat down to learn it_. Then I realized it was just as enjoyed
as emacs because it's about as powerful in its own way.
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> For most software programmers not writing device drivers, more than yes.
> :)
Or games, or simulation software, or any software where calculations need to
be performed in real-time, etc.
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> Windows is far more used than Linux and thus it is expected that most
> Blender users are also Windows users.
So why not use the normal Windows GUI in the Windows port?
> "2 lines" of platform-specific C code that will likely require in turn
> another hundreds of lines of specific wrappers and type declarations just
> to call those "2 lines". dired mode is only suffering for people who do
> not take their time to learn how to properly use it.
Most people don't have time to learn all the quirky features of every single
program, that's why OS standards exist for common operations like "show
context menu", "save", "select" etc.
> I remember vim very well because I carry it along with me everywhere I go.
But if you used Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Paint Shop Pro, Blender, Emacs,
POV, Visual Studio, some other 3D software etc all regularly and they all
used different keyboard shortcuts and UIs, would you remember them all and
be able to work very efficiently? I know I certainly wouldn't be able to.
MS wrote the app style guide for a reason.
>> Really what is the disadvantage with Ctrl-S being save instead of Ctrl-W
>> in Blender, apart from the fact that "it's always been like that"?
>
> The disadvantage is that it began that way and people learned it that way
> and if they change now people will complain. Legacy software is always
> like that.
I said *apart* from "it's always been like that" (that can be fixed by a
simple "legacy mode" option). I guess not then.
> Never heard of it. Niche tools can indeed do better by going
> platform-specific.
No, it is still available for 4 or 5 platforms IIRC (including Linux and
Solaris) so I guess they managed somehow.
> I realize now you didn't comment on my comparation with games and their
> specific interfaces.
It was a silly comparison, for a start your comment was wrong, if you read
any amount of game reviews you'll see people compain about UIs all the time,
just the other night I was reading some reviews on Amazon for GTA4 and it
was full of UI complaints. Games that run in the desktop environment (like
minesweeper, poker clients etc) all use the standard Windows UI anyway.
Some of those that run full-screen provide a separate config app that does
use the Windows UI to change all the settings. Those that don't can be
annoying at times if badly designed - what's your point? My point is just
use the Windows GUI and standards, everyone knows how to use it and it's
easier for you as a programmer - you can't go wrong.
> And lazy people who wish to use it if only it didn't take some learning.
Clever people realise there's no need for it to take as much learning as it
currently does, and then search for alternatives.
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scott escreveu:
>> Windows is far more used than Linux and thus it is expected that most
>> Blender users are also Windows users.
>
> So why not use the normal Windows GUI in the Windows port?
Because the OpenGL interface works on both, unmodified.
>> just to call those "2 lines". dired mode is only suffering for people
>> who do not take their time to learn how to properly use it.
>
> Most people don't have time to learn all the quirky features of every
> single program, that's why OS standards exist for common operations like
> "show context menu", "save", "select" etc.
OS standards change from OS to OS.
> But if you used Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Paint Shop Pro, Blender, Emacs,
> POV, Visual Studio, some other 3D software etc all regularly and they
> all used different keyboard shortcuts and UIs, would you remember them
> all and be able to work very efficiently?
Seemingly, yes. I'm a regular user of Firefox, Thunderbird, Blender,
Gimp, vim, Excel, Delphi and MS SQL Analizer. All of them have many
special quirks and having just 3 or 4 common keyboard shortcuts shared
among them doesn't help that much.
> My point is just use the Windows GUI and standards,
> everyone knows how to use it and it's easier for you as a programmer -
> you can't go wrong.
Not when you want it to be cross-platform and you don't have enough
resources to please specific platform audiences.
> Clever people realise there's no need for it to take as much learning as
> it currently does, and then search for alternatives.
Clever people realize not having 3 or 4 common keyboard shortcuts is a
lame excuse for not learning the other 80 or so specific features and
shortcuts a software might provide.
In the case of text editors, the only true viable alternative to emacs
is vim.
--
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9
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