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Invisible wrote:
> Tor Olav Kristensen wrote:
>
>> Also have look at this:
>> http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major
>
> "The Gentoo documentation was repeatedly labelled as the best online
> documentation of any distribution."
>
> Wuh? o_O
>
> Looks like I'll have to recheck their website. Last time I looked, it
> consisted only of a few dozen scrappy little wiki pages where it takes
> an age to clean anything useful. (All the pages assume you already know
> almost everything.)
When I started to use Gentoo (several years ago), I found the Gentoo
documentation very informative.
Have a look here:
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml?desc=1
I recommend that you start with the Gentoo handbook.
--
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com
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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> Tried OpenSUSE. (My dad is still using it, in fact.) I quite like YaST
> (especially the way you can run it without needing X).
If one would have to choose one reason why to recommend OpenSUSE over
any other distro, that one reason would very definitely be YaST. It's the
one single application which more or less defines OpenSUSE as a linux distro
and separates it from other distros.
I have to admit I have no experience on how system configuration and
software management is handles in other distros, but I don't remember ever
reading about tools similar to YaST in other distros. Usually all I have
read are about command-line tools like apt-get and rpm.
I in no way fear the command-line (and in fact use it quite a lot, eg.
for software development), but there are some things which just are handier
to do with a GUI, when that GUI app has been properly designed. Yast would
be such an app.
Not only can you configure almost any system setting (including things
like the apache server, firewall settings and almost anything you can
think of), but IMO the software/package manager in YaST has no equal.
AFAIK you can do the same things with apt-get or rpm as you can do
with YaST's package manager, but it just is so much easier when you can
browse search results in a graphical user interface, select what you want
to install, uninstall or update by clicking on checkboxes, read package
descriptions while browsing, etc. etc.
Of course not everything is perfect (for example the System Backup app
in YaST is quite ascetic, lacks basic features and is a real pain to use
eg. if you want to restore one single file or a few files), but for the
most part it's one of the best OS apps ever.
--
- Warp
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> And technically - very technically - the SUSE distributions are Slackware
> derivatives - but with RPM for package management instead of Slack's tgz-
> based package management (unless that's changed, I've not followed Slack
> in a while).
SUSE was derived from Slackware something like 17 years ago, and has
gone through 11 major versions (some of them quite drastic), so I would
say that it's pretty safe to say that there's almost nothing left of
Slackware in OpenSUSE by now...
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> most part it's one of the best OS apps ever.
It also has the advantage over many others that it doesn't screw up your
hand-built configurations when you use it. If you manually add routes to
your routing files, then use YaST to edit them, it neither discards them nor
chokes, but rather makes the changes right in the same file you made your
changes. This is a big win,when you need to ask someone else to help out or
if you have some changes YaST can't handle. And that's true of everything
YaST configures, as far as I can tell. It doesn't have a separate list of
init.d scripts (for example) that it clobbers yours with when you change
something after manually adding init.d scripts.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
My fortune cookie said, "You will soon be
unable to read this, even at arm's length."
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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Then again, I judge a Linux distro by how pretty it looks, how easy it
> is to make the installer do what you want it to do, and how easily I can
> make it install the software I want.
You don't sound like a geek at all. We're supposed to love tinkering with
stuff. :P
> of the Mahjong game is comes with.)
Yeah, gotta love Mahjong. I wish Gnome games were networked. It's so much more
fun! :D
For instance, once upon a time I was playing chess online (a java applet on
Yahoo!Games) with some american dude. We could talk, but hardly did so and
concentrated on the game instead. Then, in a given moment he was getting far
too much time in his turn. I asked "What happened?" He did not reply. Some
minutes later, he comes up with this: "Sorry, I had to take a shit." :P
Sadly, I lost to a guy just had had a shit.
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 09:14:02 +0000, Invisible wrote:
>>> Tried OpenSUSE. (My dad is still using it, in fact.) I quite like YaST
>>> (especially the way you can run it without needing X). The latest
>>> version seems to have done away with the "minimal text-mode install".
>>> (Or at least, it's not very "minimal" any more!)
>>
>> It's still there. I've run that install myself a few times - it might
>> be under the "custom" options where the DE selection is made.
>
> I used it to set up an old brick laptop and run it as a print server
> once. (Basically I had a printer that can only be connected via USB.
> Plugged it into a laptop, plugged the laptop into the network, operate
> the laptop by SSH. Works great!) And since YaST can be operated in
> text-mode, I was able to control it using simple SSH. (I.e., I didn't
> have to figure out how to tunnel VNC over SSH or anything weird.)
I have a Compaq Evo that I set up as a print server here using text mode;
I ultimately did add X to it (not to run locally but so I could use X
apps via SSH.
> As I recall, the "minimal text mode" install gave you the barest minimum
> to have a working system. It seems now there's a "text mode server"
> option, but it still installs a whole crapload of stuff. I was trying to
> set up a VM and I wanted the install that would take the least amount of
> time. It didn't work too well...
That's what individual package selection is for. I tend to start with
the text mode server and remove the stuff I don't need.
>>> (Although I must say, I'm never really sure what the actual
>>> *difference* is between releases of Linux distros - apart from the
>>> artwork usually being slightly different.)
>>
>> That's what the changelogs are for - to tell you what's new. And the
>> readme files. ;-)
>
> Where do you *find* that stuff though??
On the DVD, via Google.....On the website for the distribution.
Jim
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 11:56:27 -0500, Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> And technically - very technically - the SUSE distributions are
>> Slackware derivatives - but with RPM for package management instead of
>> Slack's tgz- based package management (unless that's changed, I've not
>> followed Slack in a while).
>
> SUSE was derived from Slackware something like 17 years ago, and has
> gone through 11 major versions (some of them quite drastic), so I would
> say that it's pretty safe to say that there's almost nothing left of
> Slackware in OpenSUSE by now...
As both an openSUSE user and a Novell employee, I can't disagree with
anything you said there. That's why I said "technically" it's a
derivation, IIRC the original intent was to provide a German translation
of Slack.
Probably some of the filesystem structure is about all that would be
left, and much of that was probably taken from Slack (and other distros)
and put into the file system standard that's common.
There are a few differences in the filesystem from RedHat (for example) -
the init.d structure is a little different (or it was when I switched
from RH9 to SUSE Pro 9.1).
Jim
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Tor Olav Kristensen <tor### [at] toberemovedgmailcom> wrote:
> http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major
That was actually an interesting read. With so many distros it's very
hard to follow what their differences and design principles are. That's
a superb summary of them.
It also clarified for me where some of the common misconceptions about
Linux are coming from. For example:
"In Linux when you want to configure anything you have to edit obscure
files in obscure system directories using a text editor."
That's quite clearly based on the design philosophy of Slackware, which
aims to provide a basic vanilla Unix system without the overhead and
inherent instability of the bells, whistles and eyecandy of most other
distros. Of course this philosophy, while more popular 15 years ago, is
nowadays almost exclusive to Slackware (and a few less known distros based
on it or on the same principle).
"When you want to install new software, you have to always compile it
from sources."
This is obviously based on the design of Gentoo, where indeed the entire
software management (and the even the installation of the OS itself) is
based on source code packages which are compiled for the computer in
question (the basic idea being that when the software is compiled for
that computer, it's more optimized specifically for it).
Also this is nowadays a design feature almost exclusive to Gentoo, and
quickly losing popularity (because the advantage of a per-computer based
optimized compilation gives nowadays less and less speed benefits over
more generic binary distributions).
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
> If one would have to choose one reason why to recommend OpenSUSE over
> any other distro, that one reason would very definitely be YaST.
Seems reasonable.
> I have to admit I have no experience on how system configuration and
> software management is handles in other distros, but I don't remember ever
> reading about tools similar to YaST in other distros. Usually all I have
> read are about command-line tools like apt-get and rpm.
> AFAIK you can do the same things with apt-get or rpm as you can do
> with YaST's package manager, but it just is so much easier when you can
> browse search results in a graphical user interface, select what you want
> to install, uninstall or update by clicking on checkboxes, read package
> descriptions while browsing, etc. etc.
There are tools like Aptitude and Synaptic that let you do package
management with a pretty GUI on other distros. But I haven't come across
anything quite like YaST - it's not just a package manager, it's a
complete system configuration tool. It configures (almost) everything.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Warp wrote:
> That was actually an interesting read. With so many distros it's very
> hard to follow what their differences and design principles are. That's
> a superb summary of them.
Indeed. And, more importantly, which ones are worth researching and
which ones aren't. (There seem to be millions of tiny one-man distros
these days.)
> It also clarified for me where some of the common misconceptions about
> Linux are coming from. For example:
>
> "In Linux when you want to configure anything you have to edit obscure
> files in obscure system directories using a text editor."
>
> That's quite clearly based on the design philosophy of Slackware.
Well... it's kind of the "Unix philosophy". Everything is configured by
text files. That means that you can run tools like sed and grep over
them... and, yes, build GUIs to do the work for you.
The Amiga, by constrast, used binary files for almost everything. But
even so, overwriting a config file instantly changed the way the OS
acts. E.g., copying a prefs file from disk to the prefs folder would
instantly change all your screen colours.
And Windows, by constrast again, uses "the registry".
All valid solutions, just all different.
> "When you want to install new software, you have to always compile it
> from sources."
>
> This is obviously based on the design of Gentoo, where indeed the entire
> software management (and the even the installation of the OS itself) is
> based on source code packages which are compiled for the computer in
> question (the basic idea being that when the software is compiled for
> that computer, it's more optimized specifically for it).
> Also this is nowadays a design feature almost exclusive to Gentoo, and
> quickly losing popularity (because the advantage of a per-computer based
> optimized compilation gives nowadays less and less speed benefits over
> more generic binary distributions).
Setting up Gentoo and watching it compile stuff was interesting. After a
while, I began to delude myself that I was "learning" about how large
software works and what the build process is.
Having just recompiled GHC, I think I'm secumbing to the same delusion...
PS. What the hell is it with Linux and "commands" that fill three
screenfulls of a terminal console?! What's that about?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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