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To get a pragmatic POV about religion from a true Priest I advice to see
a scene of the movie 'Kingdom of Heaven (2005)' in which a Priest that
was about to go into a certain-death battle addresses his last words to
the main Character (Legolas in Lord of The Rings, can't remember his name).
Those words and "never take compassion away from your heart" have set my
spiritual path for life.
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> Forgot to say, beautiful videos, fascinating all of them, just cruelly
> short, specially the DNA one.
There's actually a lovely long one about 15 or 20 minutes long that goes on
about the system's response to infection. I couldn't find that, but I'll
post it if I run across wherever I wrote it down.
Awe-inspiring that we actually know (for example) how fast DNA replicates
and such.
> One more thing there are things that only God can provide and yes
> somehow it shapes your perception of "spirituality, sense of
> beauty, or their knowledge of good and evil"... Makes them better... :-)
Hmmm... Hard to understand what you mean without the punctuation, but I'm
inclined to disagree.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
>> "Try reading the Bible honestly, cover to cover,
>> without someone 'helping' you interpret it, then read some stuff from
>> other religions too. That is how most of us lost all faith in it."
>
> Quite ironically, that's probably the easiest way of understanding it
> in the wrong way in many parts.
>
> You just can't go and simply read such a book out of the blue, from a
> *modern* background, without first understanding the culture and customs
> of the time, without having the correct perspective. For example, there
> are many sayings and similes which were normal and common at the time and
> the place, but which can be completely misunderstood when read without
> understanding that historical context, from a purely modern western point
> of view, especially if the simile is taken literally.
>
> Unlike many want to think of it, the Bible is not a completely
> self-contained text. In order to fully understand it you need to know
> something else as well. You just can't approach it from the scratch, without
> "someone 'helping' you to interpret it" and expect to understand it
> correctly. Doing that will only lead to misinterpretations and wrong
> conclusions.
>
> But of course radical atheists like that. They have a marvelously good
> excuse: "But I *have* read the Bible, from cover to cover, with an open
> attitude and without preconceptions, without anyone telling me how I should
> or shouldn't interpret it. And I have came to the conclusion that it's
> bollocks." Then they love to quote random passages, taken out of context
> (both the textual context and the historical/cultural context) to show how
> screwed the Bible is. Then they will ignore any attempt at an explanation
> and dismiss it as a "rationalization".
>
QFT
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> there are things that when you analyze
> them has subtle spiritual features if you are willing to admit such a
> possibility
I'm willing to admit such a possibility. I'd like to hear some of your
suggestions, tho.
I'll note, however, that "spiritual features" does not mean "my personal
invisible friend has caused it."
> I believe there is more than meets the eye and more
> than science in the Universe.
Of course there is. That doesn't mean it's (a) your God, (b) anyone else's
God, or (c) unnatural.
> Is not something me or anyone can convince you, is something you have to
> search for yourself, search the truth about spirituality, make your
> spiritual homework and see what happens.
And here, once again, is the "if you disagree, you didn't think about it
hard enough, or you're stupid" approach to argument. Do you really think
that neither Patrick nor I have searched for the truth about it?
Just look at what you're saying, and see if you don't recognise how
obnoxious you're being.
"I wonder what you're afraid of that keeps you from agreeing with me?"
"You really should think about it pretty hard, and then you'll see I'm right."
> Finally I'm sorry but I won't read what the Atheist ex-Priest wrote
"Because I know I'm already right, I won't listen to anyone like you, but
I'll assume you never listened to anyone like me, because if you did, you'd
obviously already agree."
> since I think Atheist are short sighted spiritually and they just
> speak/write from that POV, maybe later as a curiosity.
"And besides, you already agree, you're just too stupid to notice it."
Obviously I'm exagerating this, but it really is essentially what you're
saying by continuing to argue like this.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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OK Darren, I see how you see me now, and I'm not a pretentious
religious/spiritual prick that thinks that anyone not believing in some
sort of divinity is a stupid of some kind, inferior or with less dignity
than anyone deserves. I might be a little obnoxious at some point
assuming too much and for that I apologize.
By the way everyone here expresses their thoughts and beliefs I think
you all are very educated and smart people, no doubt, and my intention
was never to offend or humiliate anyone or anyone's beliefs if I did,
again, I sincerely beg your pardon.
I would like to clarify my intentions:
I'm not trying to prove you wrong and me right, is not about that is
just I believe that there is a spiritual world and yes I'd like you to
see it and believe it too, but not because of I'm right and "you are
just too stupid to see it", no, not at all, is just because I
think/believe is there and would like to you to see it too, that is all.
And this is the breaking point I think because nobody can actually show
it to you or anybody else and is only rational to not believe is such a
world, I understand that that is your point of view and I'm fine with
it. All I'm writing about it is that is not something you think and you
find, see? you think I was always a believer? you think I didn't have
the same doubts and logical analysis of this stuffs and I found myself
annoyingly and completely out of place in the middle of believers? I did
and is just the wrong approach towards it, is not something you think or
just a feeling is something you experience and realize it has to be God
and there is the testimonials of other people that some you realize are
just delusional and some that makes you think that it must be God that
helped/manifested/spoke to that person.
Those are only other's experiences until something happens to you and
you know that you were blind to some stuff that were there the whole
time, and you didn't see it because you didn't looked/thought well but
because it needed certain conditions to get revealed to you, so you can
experience it in your life. Is a perception, you can always question it,
YES, YOU CAN ALWAYS QUESTION IT, and ultimately discard it for a
rational explanation or not enough evidence but if you actually go for
the facts and don't get stuck so much of the how it happened, you can
see yourself changed by that experience and became a believer, because
you experienced something that no rational thinking can explain not even
your own.
Darren, I'm just describing here what mostly happened to me and other
spiritual/religious people, I'm not saying: "this is an irrefutable
deduction and if you don't agree with it then you are some kind of
retarded moron".
For rational thinking is endless nebula that never clears, for the
believer is a certainty called faith. The closest approach to
spirituality or being is contact with God I can give you: is like being
in-love; no matter how or how many times I describe the feeling you can
only know it by experiencing it yourself.
If you experienced other religious and/or spiritual situations which I
don't know of and still you find yourself an Atheist it may well such a
world be inexistent. That and other stuff will be known when we die, so
is not something
I think nobody but yourself can get you to a spiritual world, once you
experience it you know is there. A spiritual guide, and I don't pretend
to be one, can only do that show you what you could do to experience
spirituality, not give you a magical recipe or some kind of mechanism or
exercise to get there.
Once I heard an Anglican Priest said that we don't get to God, God comes
to us hen we call(pray to) Him, like a 3 year old child to his Mom/Dad.
One "proof" of spirituality could be this experiment made to prove the
healing power of prayers(was an International news on TV you probaly
have saw it): doctor made a wound in the arms of 2 small groups each
with men and women on them, like a 1" "volcano" type of wound made by
Doctors, all nice and controlled by professionals in a medical center,
both groups didn't know what is it all about for real just that they
were going to see how a new drug cured injuries or some story I don't
recall clearly(it's not important either), they went for about 10 days,
daily to the medical center for routine check up and to take the
"experimental drug"(placebo), each person has to go to an isolated room
where He/She put her arm through a hole and leave it there on a small
table to support it for a few minutes, on 1 group nothing was made, on
the other group people came to pray for a few minutes, in silence,
approaching their hands about 7 cms (3") above the injured arm, the the
prayers went off in silence. At the end of the experiment the would that
received prays healed 2 times faster than normal wounds. Both groups
were gather and told the truth and all were AWED :-)
Healing energy transmitted? could be... we don't order individually ever
muscle fiber to do and exact amount of effort to move our body, we give
"general orders" this could be one... for me... it came from God, as a
gift all humans have, or as spiritual people receiving healing powers
from God, what ever, I believe it came from God.
Some others short example could be Mother lifting 1+ Ton. car in flames
to save her son, and stuff that has no rational explanation but
intervention of a Creator, like a father taking care of His(/She/Its)
children. I've read/heard/seen(on TV) many testimonials of people
blessed by God that clears the doubt and puts a sense of belief on me.
I only recommend religion/spirituality because sometimes the world is
cruelly unmerciful, and people loose hope, faith, even the will to do
things or even live, because this reality can't be it, I resist that
idea, for many reasons, so much suffering and struggle in life has to
pay a better faith than just cease to exist, my life has to worth
something else, has to be a testimony and a justification of my
existence on this planet and the goodness and wrongness of my deeds and
misdeeds, IT HAS BE/MEAN MORE!
Maybe is a necessary voluntary mass brain wash for some of us, to relief
pain and daily burden of our normal troublesome existence, like smoking
or taking a beer but I feel, my reason says my feeling is OK and then I
believe in this Divine Power, in my daily life, in my good deeds on
unexpected rewards that later you realize later it has to be from God
because there is a connection.
I believe He is out there, watching us, with love, with caring, with
goodness, like a father to his 3 year old child :-)
Why God then doesn't get us all that we want? because what we need is
enough. Comes to my mind a song: Rolling Stones - You can't always get
what you want.
Peace brothers.
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> OK Darren, I see how you see me now, and I'm not a pretentious
> religious/spiritual prick
You are again conflating religion and spirituality in an inappropriate way.
You're being as annoying in this post as you would be if you were a
Christian walking up to a Jew and telling him he's neither spiritual nor
religious just because he hasn't accepted Jesus in his life. Do you see
where I'm coming from?
I believe in spirituality. I have thought about these things long and hard
for many years. I've studied what others have said.
I believe in souls, immaterial things that define who you are and help
control your behavior and provide the spiritual part of your life, that
reside in your body and flee when you die, and that guides your morality. I
believe in a limited form of life after death. I just don't believe any of
this needs a supernatural explanation or an invisible sky daddy. I believe
in a completely rational and materialistic explanation for these things
that's fairly easy to express at a surface level and which can be (and to
some extent has been) measured scientifically.
I simply take offense at religious people who do *not* understand their
soul, their god, and their religion telling me that being rational and
scientific prevents me from being spiritual.
> assuming too much and for that I apologize.
No problem. I also apologize for sounding like I didn't recognize your good
intentions. It's that whole "road to hell" part that is the problem, tho.
> was never to offend or humiliate anyone or anyone's beliefs if I did,
> again, I sincerely beg your pardon.
Understand that you haven't offended me. I recognize your good intentions,
and I'm simply trying to explain why you might offend someone you said these
things to who hasn't already forgiven you for them. :)
> just I believe that there is a spiritual world and yes I'd like you to
> see it and believe it too,
But I've already told you I see it and believe it. You're just not believing
that's true because I don't believe in your diety.
> And this is the breaking point I think because nobody can actually show
> it to you or anybody else and is only rational to not believe is such a
> world,
Depending on what "such a world" you speak of, it may or may not be irrational.
> All I'm writing about it is that is not something you think and you
> find, see?
How do you know?
And even if it isn't, what makes you think a spiritual world isn't one you
can investigate rationally?
> Those are only other's experiences until something happens to you and
> you know that you were blind to some stuff that were there the whole
> time,
Yes. Oddly enough, the same is true of a bad drug trip. :)
> YES, YOU CAN ALWAYS QUESTION IT, and ultimately discard it for a
> rational explanation or not enough evidence
And I have.
> but if you actually go for
> the facts and don't get stuck so much of the how it happened, you can
> see yourself changed by that experience and became a believer,
Right. So it's OK to think about it and question it and ultimately discard
it. But I'm wrong, because I haven't become a believer.
> you experienced something that no rational thinking can explain not even
> your own.
Here's the difference. I don't feel the need to explain everything that
happened to me or the rest of the universe. I would rather have no answer
and say "I don't know" than make up a useless and incorrect answer.
If someone asks me how many white cars are on the continent of Africa right
now, I'd far rather say "I don't know" than to say "I'll ask God and get
back to you." Wouldn't you?
> Darren, I'm just describing here what mostly happened to me and other
> spiritual/religious people, I'm not saying: "this is an irrefutable
> deduction and if you don't agree with it then you are some kind of
> retarded moron".
>
> For rational thinking is endless nebula that never clears,
Because it's impossible to come to the right conclusion simply by thinking
rationally about it? In the first paragraph, you say you don't want to
imply those who aren't religious are insufficiently intelligent. In the next
sentence, you say "it's impossible for a rational person, no matter how
smart, to have better answers than a believer."
> If you experienced other religious and/or spiritual situations which I
> don't know of and still you find yourself an Atheist it may well such a
> world be inexistent. That and other stuff will be known when we die, so
> is not something
I already believe in life after death, and I'm an atheist. So?
> I think nobody but yourself can get you to a spiritual world, once you
> experience it you know is there.
Yet, because I don't believe in your God, you disregard my repeated
statements that I am already in a spiritual world, and even posted links,
continuing to speak as if I'm missing something. Simply because I *know* how
spirituality works, rather than making up stories that make no sense.
> One "proof" of spirituality could be this experiment made to prove the
> healing power of prayers(was an International news on TV you probaly
> have saw it):
No. I'd enjoy seeing a link to any actual scientific proofs of the efficacy
of prayer on healing. So far, I've not seen any such thing.
> Some others short example could be Mother lifting 1+ Ton. car in flames
> to save her son, and stuff that has no rational explanation but
> intervention of a Creator,
Are you saying that the intervention of a Creator is the only rational
explanation? Or are you saying there's no rational explanation, so it must
have been a Creator?
> I only recommend religion/spirituality because sometimes the world is
> cruelly unmerciful, and people loose hope, faith, even the will to do
> things or even live, because this reality can't be it, I resist that
> idea, for many reasons, so much suffering and struggle in life has to
> pay a better faith than just cease to exist, my life has to worth
> something else, has to be a testimony and a justification of my
> existence on this planet and the goodness and wrongness of my deeds and
> misdeeds, IT HAS BE/MEAN MORE!
It sounds to me like you're the one afraid to face rationality, actually,
rather than me being the one afraid to face the possibility of spirituality.
I used to be afraid of the world, thinking there must be more than there is.
Then I figured out how the world works, and now I don't fear that stuff any
more.
> Maybe is a necessary voluntary mass brain wash for some of us, to relief
> pain and daily burden of our normal troublesome existence,
I believe that's the source of much belief in personal deities.
> I believe He is out there, watching us, with love, with caring, with
> goodness, like a father to his 3 year old child :-)
I'm glad it's comforting. I feel that you should understand that such a
situation is not necessarily comforting to someone who has come to different
conclusions about life, just like the idea that Jesus died for your sins
isn't particularly comforting to a Buddhist monk.
> Peace brothers.
And I thank you for your reasonable discussions. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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On 14-Jan-09 2:06, Saul Luizaga wrote:
>
> andrel, the Bible was written as "poetry" in some points to better
> describe God deeds, so you are taking it the wrong way.
Thanks, I was sort of aware of that. I haven't got the slightest idea
why you think that would be a relevant remark, though. Was it something
I said?
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I am not always happy with the style of Patrick but I myself have never
been able to let two persons that seem to take the bible as the Word of
God admit that there is a context to the bible. Not even that but even a
condemnation of selective quoting. So, a deep bow to Patrick by me. And
of course a deep bow of respect to Warp and Saul. I never fully realized
that even the theists are different in p.o-t.
On 14-Jan-09 1:46, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
>> "Try reading the Bible honestly, cover to cover,
>> without someone 'helping' you interpret it, then read some stuff from
>> other religions too. That is how most of us lost all faith in it."
>
> Quite ironically, that's probably the easiest way of understanding it
> in the wrong way in many parts.
>
> You just can't go and simply read such a book out of the blue, from a
> *modern* background, without first understanding the culture and customs
> of the time, without having the correct perspective. For example, there
> are many sayings and similes which were normal and common at the time and
> the place, but which can be completely misunderstood when read without
> understanding that historical context, from a purely modern western point
> of view, especially if the simile is taken literally.
>
> Unlike many want to think of it, the Bible is not a completely
> self-contained text. In order to fully understand it you need to know
> something else as well. You just can't approach it from the scratch, without
> "someone 'helping' you to interpret it" and expect to understand it
> correctly. Doing that will only lead to misinterpretations and wrong
> conclusions.
>
> But of course radical atheists like that. They have a marvelously good
> excuse: "But I *have* read the Bible, from cover to cover, with an open
> attitude and without preconceptions, without anyone telling me how I should
> or shouldn't interpret it. And I have came to the conclusion that it's
> bollocks." Then they love to quote random passages, taken out of context
> (both the textual context and the historical/cultural context) to show how
> screwed the Bible is. Then they will ignore any attempt at an explanation
> and dismiss it as a "rationalization".
>
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On 14-Jan-09 10:30, Saul Luizaga wrote:
[snip]
If I read this I get the impression that you moved from a 'standard'
Christian faith to a gnostic version, is that correct?
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Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
>> "Try reading the Bible honestly, cover to cover,
>> without someone 'helping' you interpret it, then read some stuff from
>> other religions too. That is how most of us lost all faith in it."
>
> Quite ironically, that's probably the easiest way of understanding it
> in the wrong way in many parts.
>
> You just can't go and simply read such a book out of the blue, from a
> *modern* background, without first understanding the culture and customs
> of the time, without having the correct perspective. For example, there
> are many sayings and similes which were normal and common at the time and
> the place, but which can be completely misunderstood when read without
> understanding that historical context, from a purely modern western point
> of view, especially if the simile is taken literally.
>
> Unlike many want to think of it, the Bible is not a completely
> self-contained text. In order to fully understand it you need to know
> something else as well. You just can't approach it from the scratch, without
> "someone 'helping' you to interpret it" and expect to understand it
> correctly. Doing that will only lead to misinterpretations and wrong
> conclusions.
>
> But of course radical atheists like that. They have a marvelously good
> excuse: "But I *have* read the Bible, from cover to cover, with an open
> attitude and without preconceptions, without anyone telling me how I should
> or shouldn't interpret it. And I have came to the conclusion that it's
> bollocks." Then they love to quote random passages, taken out of context
> (both the textual context and the historical/cultural context) to show how
> screwed the Bible is. Then they will ignore any attempt at an explanation
> and dismiss it as a "rationalization".
>
Oh, sorry, did I fail to mention that part of "reading it cover to
cover", usually entails them going, "This makes no sense", and thus...
reading the contextual data about the time periods and ideas people had
when its parts where written? Silly me. I kind of assumed that was a given.
That said, why is some modern priests claims about what people thought
or believed back then more valid than the people that wrote back then,
or the historical and archaeological evidence from then, or... pretty
much 100% of everything that both the average church goer, *and* 90% of
the priesthood never *ever* read either? You will find that, in most
case, if someone brings up a quote, those "radical atheists" you seem to
think don't get it can not just quote a passage, they can tell you when,
how, under what circumstances, and fairly often, even what the
"original" untranslated text said, and why thus the modern version
contradicts, in many cases, the original meaning, not to mention how
little sense the ancient version made itself, in context of anything
other than its own mythology.
Case in point, somethings as simple as "taking the lords name in
vein."/cursing The modern interpretation is Protestant, and lumps
anything from references to bodily functions, to saying 'damn it', into
the same category. Its the interpretation that almost all Christians
support are factual, including nearly all priests. A few take an older
variation of it, which makes cuss words just some category of things
"God" doesn't like, while "real" cursing is reserved for using gods
name, but again, in "any" context that doesn't involve praising him. A
tiny few actually understand the original context, and, despite still
being all fainty over cuss words, apply prayers to the purpose of... I
am not sure what, since I never understood what the point of going, "I
lost my job, have cancer, will probably die in less than five years, but
praise you for being up there and let thy will be done!", does that is
at all useful. In that old "original" context, the kinds of
interventionist prayer that nearly all Christians follow, in which they
pray to their god to help them find a new crib for the coming baby, or
cure their cancer, or ask god to put a stop to the actions of some
terrorists, or even for him to "strike down those who are unjust",
**all** fall into the original principle of "taking his name in vein and
cursing", by which you attempt to cajole, conjure, command, or demand of
ones god that he "do something" for you. You are not supposed to do
that, according to the *original* meaning, but probably less than 20% of
supposed Christians bother to understand the original text, context, or
meaning, so as to realize this, and that *includes* priests.
So, yeah. You are absolutely right. Its not a self contained text. The
problem is, examining it in the "correct" context tends to make it a)
more obviously a myth, b) more obviously made up to support tribal
ambitions, not as a factual source, and c) often "undermines" all modern
presumptions about what its god is like, wants people to do, or his
willingness to reward/forgive various actions. Not that (a) isn't
sufficient reason, by itself, to set in on the shelf next to Tolkien's
books, instead of your copy of "How to Build a Shelf".
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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