On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:57:42 -0500, Tom Austin wrote:

> Yes, but at least you were not involved in the accident - given they
> were far enough ahead.
> 
> If you get in their way you may be the indirect cause of an accident.

True, but if I can keep 'em behind me, then I'm not going to be stuck in 
traffic for hours. ;-)

Jim (mostly joking)

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> Technically, yes, you're in trouble. You're not supposed to enter the 
> intersection unless you can clear the other side legally.

That's sounds a bit silly, how are you meant to know if the light is going 
to switch to red before you get to the other side?  Just this morning I 
entered an intersection as it switched to amber (no way to stop in time), 
and I'm pretty sure it was on red by the time I got out the other side 
(around 20mph I guess, crossing 4 lanes of traffic and 2 tram lines).

> Don't pull into the middle of the intersection to turn - wait in the turn 
> lane, for example.

You must have to wait for a huge gap in the oncoming traffic then - usually 
here you move forward until you are exactly lined up with the exit, and as 
soon as there is a gap in the oncoming traffic you make the turn.  Otherwise 
you'd literally be there all day (and getting honked at from the cars 
behind)!.

> In New York City, where such leads to deadlock,

It will only lead to deadlock if you enter the intersection when your exit 
is not clear - we have that rule too.

> In practice, no, you rarely get in trouble, unless you do something else 
> stupid too and it's something they add on top.

Ditto here, the police are not going to even do anything if they are right 
behind you.  They're probably doing the same thing :-)

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> Well, there were already constitutional challenges based on the fact that 
> the camera can't take the witness stand, for example. How are you supposed 
> to argue you weren't speeding if the police won't even tell you where they 
> caught you speeding?

Of course they should tell you where you were caught, but there's no reason 
to keep the cameras in the same place.

Actually in the UK they had almost this method, because I think 80-90% of 
the camera housings are actually empty inside.  A pretty good idea so long 
as they put the camera housings near dangerous areas (and not just on a big 
empty wide stretch with a ridiculously low limit).  Naturally they move 
around the actual cameras, so you're never sure which ones are actually 
working or not.

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scott wrote:
>> Technically, yes, you're in trouble. You're not supposed to enter the 
>> intersection unless you can clear the other side legally.
> 
> That's sounds a bit silly, how are you meant to know if the light is 
> going to switch to red before you get to the other side? 

That's what the yellow is for.

> morning I entered an intersection as it switched to amber (no way to 
> stop in time), and I'm pretty sure it was on red by the time I got out 
> the other side (around 20mph I guess, crossing 4 lanes of traffic and 2 

They need a longer yellow light there.  As I said, in practice it's 
usually not a problem.

> You must have to wait for a huge gap in the oncoming traffic then - 

Or look ahead a bit. Or wait for the turn signal.

Of course it all falls apart if the lights aren't designed properly, 
yes. If the yellow is too short to clear the intersection at a 
reasonable speed, or you have no left turn arrow when there's usually 
lots of oncoming traffic, you'll be in trouble.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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> That's what the yellow is for.

So, you make the yellow phase last long enough to cross the entire junction 
at the slowest speed you can imagine for that junction?  I guess that would 
work, but then when the road is flowing normally, people would just continue 
to drive through on yellow, knowing that it is going to last for 5 seconds 
or whatever, when the whole point of yellow is for you to stop if it's safe 
to do so.

In China I saw a few lights where they had a big 7-segment countdown timer 
above the lights, looked like a pretty cool idea, well it would have been if 
they paid any attention to the lights in the first place :-)

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scott wrote:
> So, you make the yellow phase last long enough to cross the entire 
> junction at the slowest speed you can imagine for that junction?

No. If you're going *that* slow, it's easier to stop. You make it long 
enough to get through going at the slowest speed where it would be 
unsafe to try to stop. :-)

> In China I saw a few lights where they had a big 7-segment countdown 
> timer above the lights, looked like a pretty cool idea, well it would 
> have been if they paid any attention to the lights in the first place :-)

Yeah. I'm rather surprised there's any Chinese people left alive, with 
the way they do traffic there. :-)

"That's our hotel on the left."
    "Then why did the taxi driver pull into the right-turn-only lane?"
"The line's shorter."

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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>> So, you make the yellow phase last long enough to cross the entire 
>> junction at the slowest speed you can imagine for that junction?
>
> No. If you're going *that* slow, it's easier to stop.

But my whole point is, how do you know it's about to switch to amber?  If 
you enter the junction on green going slow enough, you won't make it to the 
other side before it gets to red.

> Yeah. I'm rather surprised there's any Chinese people left alive, with the 
> way they do traffic there. :-)
>
> "That's our hotel on the left."
>    "Then why did the taxi driver pull into the right-turn-only lane?"
> "The line's shorter."

To be fair that isn't *that* bad, I've seen quite a few cars do that here, 
using the turn-only lane and then going straight, getting in front of about 
20-30 cars in the process.  What I found particularly weird in China was 
that they started to queue up in the lanes for oncoming traffic when at a 
red light!  Or that you can be going around a corner on a 2-lane road at 
50mph and suddenly you're faced with an old woman on a tricycle coming 
towards you!

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scott wrote:
> If you enter the junction on green going slow enough, you won't make it 
> to the other side before it gets to red.

Stop on the green. Wait till it's clear on the far side.

>> Yeah. I'm rather surprised there's any Chinese people left alive, with 
>> the way they do traffic there. :-)
>>
>> "That's our hotel on the left."
>>    "Then why did the taxi driver pull into the right-turn-only lane?"
>> "The line's shorter."
> 
> To be fair that isn't *that* bad,

It was for me! That's not a story, that's an experience. :-)

> on a 2-lane road at 50mph and suddenly you're faced with an old woman on 
> a tricycle coming towards you!

Yeah. And the people on bicycles weaving out in front of the oncoming 
busses.

Like I said, I'm surprised there's any of them left alive.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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