Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Depends how you define "kernel".

> How different is MacOS? Is it just a typical Unix environment with a 
> different UI shell running on top? Or is it more fundamentally different 
> than that under the hood?

  It is quite different from typical unix systems. For example, it
implements many file system features (such as metadata) that typical
unix systems don't have. Also the windowing system is its own entity
and has nothing to do with unix.

  Of course the great thing is that you *can* compile and run most unix
programs in it if you want. IIRC it can even emulate the X windowing system
so you can run graphical unix programs as well.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Eero Ahonen wrote:

> People who have no clue about computers and know it are a lot wiser with 
> computers than people who have no clue but don't know it. Last group 
> tries to fix everything themselves, while only doing things worse.

I have just got back to my desk after another support call from one of 
our lab staff.

I've seen many things - people who accidentally removed the taskbar, 
deleted a print queue, stuff like that. But even today, after working 
here for 5 years, users are still finding new ways to surprise me.

This user called me over because she has somehow rotated the display on 

Somehow, she did it.

Quoting Einstein: "There are only two things that are infinite - the 
universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not even completely sure about 
the first one..."

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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>> How different is MacOS? Is it just a typical Unix environment with a 
>> different UI shell running on top? Or is it more fundamentally different 
>> than that under the hood?
> 
>   It is quite different from typical unix systems. For example, it
> implements many file system features (such as metadata) that typical
> unix systems don't have. Also the windowing system is its own entity
> and has nothing to do with unix.

If you look at any typical Unix, you'll see the following things:

- The /dev folder.
- init and getty (and that whole TTY mess).
- Runlevel scripts (written in Bash, obviously).
- at and cron.
- UIDs, GIDs, setuid, setgid, sticky bit and associated chaos.

How much of this sort of thing does MacOS have?

>   Of course the great thing is that you *can* compile and run most unix
> programs in it if you want. IIRC it can even emulate the X windowing system
> so you can run graphical unix programs as well.

Yeah... I recall Haskell doesn't have any bindings for the native UI 
yet, so many people on MacOS evidently run X so they can use the 
standard X bindings instead...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Invisible wrote:
> I think somebody needs to sit down and write an OS which *is* designed 
> for people's dads to use.

That's what Singularity is supposed to be about, in part. Unfortunately, 
everyone's going to say "I don't want some big bad company managing my 
software for me."

Linux also fits that bill, as in TiVO, where the company that sold it to 
you manages it for you.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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Invisible wrote:
> 
> - The /dev folder.
> - init and getty (and that whole TTY mess).
> - Runlevel scripts (written in Bash, obviously).
> - at and cron.
> - UIDs, GIDs, setuid, setgid, sticky bit and associated chaos.
> 
> How much of this sort of thing does MacOS have?
> 

AFAIK ~all of them. But most of the users never even see them.

-- 
Eero "Aero" Ahonen
    http://www.zbxt.net
       aer### [at] removethiszbxtnetinvalid

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Invisible wrote:
> This user called me over because she has somehow rotated the display on 

> Somehow, she did it.
> 
Actually, KRandR does it quite happily. I've just had fun rotating my 
desktop by 90 deg increments and as an encore mirroring it vertically 
then horizontally and rotating it once again (I've got to get a life)

John

-- 
"Eppur si muove" - Galileo Galilei

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On 28-Aug-08 16:17, Invisible wrote:
> Eero Ahonen wrote:
> 
>> People who have no clue about computers and know it are a lot wiser 
>> with computers than people who have no clue but don't know it. Last 
>> group tries to fix everything themselves, while only doing things worse.
> 
> I have just got back to my desk after another support call from one of 
> our lab staff.
> 
> I've seen many things - people who accidentally removed the taskbar, 
> deleted a print queue, stuff like that. But even today, after working 
> here for 5 years, users are still finding new ways to surprise me.
> 
> This user called me over because she has somehow rotated the display on 

> Somehow, she did it.
> 

My wife did that once. Try ctrl-alt-shift up (or down or sideways).
If that works, disable that shortcuts in the advanced settings of your 
monitor.
Shortcuts are handy if the monitor physically can rotate, if not they 
are annoying.

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Gilles Tran wrote:
> Really, never understimate people who have no clue when it comes to mess 
> with computers. Some time ago, all it took to get a BSOD on my old 
> laptop (that had been BSOD-free for years) was a friend of my wife, who 
> wanted to chat on Yahoo and somehow managed to plug/unplug the modem at 
> exactly the wrong moment. Not that they are guilty, but they do certain 
> "dangerous" things that more geeky people wouldn't dare to.

Well, in this case, he would have to mess up the download itself, and 
the only possible way is to just shutdown the computer without letting 
it finish it's tasks. But my dad doesn't do that, he tells it to 
shutdown and then lets it do its job.

> BTW, was your Dad's Vista upgraded to SP1? Certain vendors were still 
> selling machines with pre-SP1 Vista and I know from experience that it 
> did have issues with automatic upgrades.

Hm, AFAIK, it was already installed, the Laptop is only four weeks old 
or so. But I'd have to check.

You'd figure it would be a stupid idea to sell hardware with outdated 
software, but then, how long are laptops kept in stock and catching 
dust, until they're sold?

I'm just glad it got fixed. Lately, my dad calls me at least twice a day 
because of some software he didn't yet install, but needs. I didn't like 
Vista that much on first sight, and since my PC is running fine with XP, 
I never upgraded - and my laptop is a Mac. So I didn't come to terms 
with all the querks and how to tweak it to my liking. Then along comes 
dad, with no real clue, and expects me to work some magic. *sigh*

Regards,
Tim

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Tim Nikias wrote:
> Well, in this case, he would have to mess up the download itself,

Well, downloads can get broken, and when you talk about all the packets 
ever downloaded over the internet, a 16-bit CRC doesn't necessarily do 
the job. But you'd hope such a thing gets checked more completely once 
the downloads finish. :-)

Of course, if you screw things up, and (say) don't double-check the 
configuration is right before you change it, it can get messed up. Hard 
to say what happened without more details.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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andrel wrote:

> My wife did that once. Try ctrl-alt-shift up (or down or sideways).
> If that works, disable that shortcuts in the advanced settings of your 
> monitor.
> Shortcuts are handy if the monitor physically can rotate, if not they 
> are annoying.

Yeah, I've seen monitors that do. But the Dell monitors at work don't 
rotate like that...

As it is, I managed to open the video options window and manually adjust 
the setting. The hardest part was operating the mouse with its axies 
transposed - the user thought I was God-like for pulling that off! ;-)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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