"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b41ffc$1@news.povray.org...
> somebody wrote:
>
> >> FINALLY, a story where the blame actually ends up being put where it
> >> belongs...
> >
> > Au conraire. The blame is squarely on the developers, not the sponsors.
>
> I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually
> want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you
> supposed to do?

Inform the 'overlords' before 2 years and lots of money are wasted.

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Gail Shaw wrote:
> "Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> news:47b41ffc$1@news.povray.org...
>> somebody wrote:
>>
>>>> FINALLY, a story where the blame actually ends up being put where it
>>>> belongs...
>>> Au conraire. The blame is squarely on the developers, not the sponsors.
>> I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually
>> want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you
>> supposed to do?
> 
> Inform the 'overlords' before 2 years and lots of money are wasted.

Somehow I suspect they tried, but weren't listened to...

[Although obviously there's no real way to know in this case.]

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b42213$1@news.povray.org...

> >> I see. So when the customer has no idea what the hell they actually
> >> want, but they are demanding that they want it RIGHT NOW, what are you
> >> supposed to do?

> > http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/no

> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,

Then say "no" to your boss. If your boss told you to jump off a cliff, would
you? Communication, and not just going in for the ride, is the key to
avoiding train wrecks. All these developers blaming their bosses or clients
for dismal failures are simply exposing their inability to communicate and
stand their ground - that, or like I said, they shared the bosses' or
clients' delusions at one time at least and cannot admit to that.

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somebody wrote:

>> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
> 
> Then say "no" to your boss.

Sure. If you don't mind being fired.

Although, in this instance, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad idea...

> All these developers blaming their bosses or clients
> for dismal failures are simply exposing their inability to communicate and
> stand their ground.

Because of course, standing your ground in a policital situation is 
trivially easy...

I love the way every time I say anything I am always wrong by 
definition. Clients demand the impossible within ridiculous timescales? 
Sure, of corse the client isn't to blame for the project's failure...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
> somebody wrote:

> >> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,

> > Then say "no" to your boss.

> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.

False dichotomy.

> Because of course, standing your ground in a policital situation is
> trivially easy...

No, pocketing the client's money while delivering an unusable product is the
trivially easy one. The other actually requires some skill and integrity.
(And how did politics get into this?)

> I love the way every time I say anything I am always wrong by
> definition.

You are wrong.

> Clients demand the impossible within ridiculous timescales?
> Sure, of corse the client isn't to blame for the project's failure...

If you go to an auto mechanic and demand to have the engine double its HP
overnight, should he fake it and charge you? Why should I respect a
developer who exhibits the same dishonesty just so he can make money of
ignorant/unsuspecting clients?

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
> somebody wrote:
>
> >> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
> >
> > Then say "no" to your boss.
>
> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.

Only if it's a bad boss in the first place.

I tell my boss (direct manager that is) no way quite often. I still have a
job.
He trusts that I know my job better than he does. That's why he pays me

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Gail Shaw wrote:
> "Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
>> somebody wrote:
>>
>>>> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
>>> Then say "no" to your boss.
>> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.
> 
> Only if it's a bad boss in the first place.
> 
> I tell my boss (direct manager that is) no way quite often. I still have a
> job.
> He trusts that I know my job better than he does. That's why he pays me

I can't help feeling that if "the overlords" didn't figure out there's 
not spec until the final hour, they're probably not the good kind...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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"Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
news:47b473e4@news.povray.org...
> Gail Shaw wrote:
> > "Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> > news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
> >> somebody wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
> >>> Then say "no" to your boss.
> >> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.
> >
> > Only if it's a bad boss in the first place.
> >
> > I tell my boss (direct manager that is) no way quite often. I still have
a
> > job.
> > He trusts that I know my job better than he does. That's why he pays me
>
> I can't help feeling that if "the overlords" didn't figure out there's
> not spec until the final hour, they're probably not the good kind...

Probably not. In which case, do you really weant to be working for them?

Could also be that the 'overlords' were getting 'progress' reports from the
client. Reports that were complete fabrication. And then they assume that
because no issues have been raised by the dev team, all's well.

There are a number of possible causes for this stuff up. Lack of
communication, however, is almost certainly a contributing factor.

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On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:54:09 +0200, Gail Shaw wrote:

> "Invisible" <voi### [at] devnull> wrote in message
> news:47b46229@news.povray.org...
>> somebody wrote:
>>
>> >> Right. So your boss has told the client "yes,
>> >
>> > Then say "no" to your boss.
>>
>> Sure. If you don't mind being fired.
> 
> Only if it's a bad boss in the first place.
> 
> I tell my boss (direct manager that is) no way quite often. I still have
> a job.
> He trusts that I know my job better than he does. That's why he pays me

Same here.  Had a situation come up about a month ago where my boss asked 
me to change something about the requirements for a course; I said "no" 
and explained why we did things the way we did, and she was good with 
that - and even agreed with our reasoning (better to have a few 
instructors who are excellent at teaching it than all the instructors out 
there - qualified and not - teaching it and giving customers a bad 
impression of the product).  5 years now, and I've said no to my VP a few 
times as well.

Of course, there are many different ways to say no, and some of them will 
get you fired.

Jim

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Gail Shaw wrote:

> There are a number of possible causes for this stuff up. Lack of
> communication, however, is almost certainly a contributing factor.

I fully agree.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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