Jim Henderson wrote:
> The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to re-
> encode exactly the same way. 

No it wouldn't. People work on watermarks all the time that don't need 
precise reencoding.

Xerox worked on systems for watermarking documents that would survive 
being photocopied at the wrong size and then faxed, for example.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:48:21 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The thing is, the watermark, in order to be meaningful, would have to
>> re- encode exactly the same way.
> 
> No it wouldn't. People work on watermarks all the time that don't need
> precise reencoding.
> 
> Xerox worked on systems for watermarking documents that would survive
> being photocopied at the wrong size and then faxed, for example.

I'm trying to see how that would work in a sound file, though.  Visual 
watermarks are generally a different matter.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> I'm trying to see how that would work in a sound file, though. 

Futz with the analog before you encode it the first time. It's going to 
be more audible that one that wouldn't survive recodings, but if you 
want a watermark that survives being played out a speaker and 
re-recorded, that's what you need.

I don't know enough about the physics of it to know how to do it, but I 
know it's been done (and broken) multiple times.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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On 11 Feb 2008 19:11:15 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
>It's not surprising; it is a fairly difficult piece; and if you think the 
>march effect was tough, you ain't seen the violin bit for the start of 
>the 5th movement. ;-)

No I've not and even if I had I wouldn't understand it. One of my biggest
disappointments in life is that I have no singing voice and can't keep time. :(
I march to the beat of a different drum, as they say :)

Regards
	Stephen

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On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:35:18 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I'm trying to see how that would work in a sound file, though.
> 
> Futz with the analog before you encode it the first time. It's going to
> be more audible that one that wouldn't survive recodings, but if you
> want a watermark that survives being played out a speaker and
> re-recorded, that's what you need.
> 
> I don't know enough about the physics of it to know how to do it, but I
> know it's been done (and broken) multiple times.

Huh, I wouldn't have thought it could be done...too many variables..

Jim

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On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 08:36:11 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2008 19:11:15 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
> 
>>It's not surprising; it is a fairly difficult piece; and if you think
>>the march effect was tough, you ain't seen the violin bit for the start
>>of the 5th movement. ;-)
> 
> No I've not and even if I had I wouldn't understand it. One of my
> biggest disappointments in life is that I have no singing voice and
> can't keep time. :( I march to the beat of a different drum, as they say
> :)

Well, my violin teacher always said I couldn't count my way out of a wet 
paper bag.  (My sense of timing is pretty bad, but I still managed to be 
pretty good even if I do say so myself <g>).

Jim

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On 12 Feb 2008 17:14:39 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
>Well, my violin teacher always said I couldn't count my way out of a wet 
>paper bag.  (My sense of timing is pretty bad, but I still managed to be 
>pretty good even if I do say so myself <g>).

I can get a recognisable tune out of a tin whistle but when I played the pipes I
couldn't do it in a band. :(

Regards
	Stephen

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On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:37:09 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 12 Feb 2008 17:14:39 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Well, my violin teacher always said I couldn't count my way out of a wet
>>paper bag.  (My sense of timing is pretty bad, but I still managed to be
>>pretty good even if I do say so myself <g>).
> 
> I can get a recognisable tune out of a tin whistle but when I played the
> pipes I couldn't do it in a band. :(

Now that's something I never tried. (Both things, that is)

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> That's what I recall from a music history class I took years ago.  I 
> might be thinking of something else (perhaps "Simple Gifts" from 
> Appalachian Spring).

That would make sense since it was definitely based on a shaker tune. 
One of my favorite "folk" tunes to be honest (folk in quotes since it's 
not all *that* old).  Copland's use of it is very nice too.

It is interesting though that there'll occasionally be a classical tune 
that I later learn actually originated in a folk song.

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On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:43:37 -0800, Kevin Wampler
<wampler+pov### [at] uwashingtonedu> wrote:

>Jim Henderson wrote:
>> That's what I recall from a music history class I took years ago.  I 
>> might be thinking of something else (perhaps "Simple Gifts" from 
>> Appalachian Spring).
>
>That would make sense since it was definitely based on a shaker tune. 
>One of my favorite "folk" tunes to be honest (folk in quotes since it's 
>not all *that* old).  Copland's use of it is very nice too.
>
>It is interesting though that there'll occasionally be a classical tune 
>that I later learn actually originated in a folk song.


can be changed into a complex classical piece. :) I do like Copland's version.
There was also a fashion for composers to write variations of folk music in the
classical period. Irish and Scottish songs got a makeover from the likes of
Beethoven and Weber etc.


Regards
	Stephen

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