On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:13:04 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:54:17 -0000, "Phil Cook"
> <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote:
> 
>>> What, that people have to evolve their skills?  That's the way the
>>> world is (at least in the so-called "western world") these days. 
>>> Adapt or die....It sounds harsh, but it's reality.
>>
>>Except ever since conveyor-belt style systems were introduced the skills
>>gap has gotten wider and more difficult to jump.
> 
> I agree. I started out working on the factory floor and now I help to
> introduce technology that makes life easier for fewer. :(

But overall, how's unemployment over there?

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:09:31 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 6 Feb 2008 17:43:12 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>  
>>> That is dispiriting.
>>
>>What, that people have to evolve their skills?  That's the way the world
>>is (at least in the so-called "western world") these days.  Adapt or
>>die....It sounds harsh, but it's reality.
>>
> No I meant that you feel that it is the people that learn how to follow
> instructions as apposed to people who learn how to build something that
> will be successful. That is dispiriting.

Oh, I see what you mean.  You have to understand, though, that I worked 
in a factory while in college assembling paint sprayers; there were those 
who were content to just follow a set of instructions from 7-4 every day, 
and then leave the factory and live their lives; work was a means to a 
living, rather than being their life.  There's a certain appeal to that.

The danger with just going in and doing a job like that is that you can 
be laid off, and if your skills are specialized (in that you do one set 
of things day in and day out for, say, 15 years), that makes things 
difficult when you try to find something else to do.

>>I'm happy to talk either politics or religion.  Maybe that's why I don't
>>have a lot of friends. ;-)
> 
> Maybe you weren't brought up in a region that was renowned for violence
> and religious bigotry. I was and it is taboo for a very good reason IMO.
> Although I understand others feel differently.:)

I was raised Lutheran; make of that what you will. :-)  I'm *mostly* non-
religious these days, truth be told.

>>I'm having a great debate right now with someone about the relative
>>merits of calling Wicca a religion (he doesn't believe it is, and he's
>>wrong <g>)
> 
> It is not surprising to me that the "Old Religion" is not considered a
> religion by some.

Same here.  Though arguably, Wicca itself is relatively new (founded in 
the '50s), but based on far older traditions.

> and the US armed forces holding weekly services for those who

Who.....?  I think you forgot to finish a sentence here. <g>

>>Add to that his statement that belief that science can eventually
>>explain everything is irrational (but belief in an invisible guy in the
>>sky who controls everything isn't?), and you've got a conversation
>>that's ripe for lots of fun shouting. :-)  Needless to say, *I've* been
>>having fun with it.
> 
> Ah! Well. Each to their own and rib him mercilessly :)

You'd better believe it.  He's now taking to schoolyard tactics and 
really making himself look foolish in the process.

>>Yeah, I understand that you guys are catching the sub-prime mortgage
>>wave that hit us the end of last year.  Don't get bitten.
> 
> Too late [quote http://www.creditaction.org.uk/debt-statistics.html ]
> Average household debt in the UK is ~ £8,985 (excluding mortgages). This
> figure increases to £20,895 if the average is based on the number of
> households who actually have some form of unsecured loan.

Wow, that's really something.  I think we're in (outside of our primary 
mortgage - we have an equity line as well) about $70K, but *most* of that 
is secured debt.  Only about $15K is unsecured credit card debt, and the 
majority of that will be paid off in the next 90 days (tax refund).

>>I also understand
> 
>> :  What's the
>>world coming to?
> 
> It looks like its going to Hades in a wheelbarrow. :) But then I've been
> hearing that all my life. If you extrapolate that back there must have
> been a Golden Age :-)

LOL; why did I just think of "The Pirate Planet"?

>>Yep.  I have to admit that I'm concerned about my retirement fund;
> 
> I've decided to work until I die. :)
> But then I like my work. Thinking about it I just like working :)

Same here; though oddly I'm here instead of doing the stuff I need to 
just at the moment. :-)

>> I was
>>stupid when I was in my early 20s and closed my 401(k) account so I
>>could make a down payment on a house.  That money would, in the long
>>run, been much better left invested where it was.  I may have another
>>30-35 years of working time left before I retire, but the operation of
>>compound interest would've served me well with the money I put in when I
>>was 19-22.
> 
> If only we could see into the future but don't get me started on
> religion :)

LOL, yes, that's certainly true.  Hindsight really is 20/20.

>>It can be a bit depressing at times.  That said, I love the job, though,
>>and right now couldn't see myself doing anything else.  I've always been
>>a bit mercenary when it comes to employment (though there are things I
>>*won't* do), and for the first time in my career, I'm in a place where,
>>if something "better" came along I probably wouldn't take it.  I would
>>look at it, but IME "better" is always a case of appearances, and things
>>are pretty good where I am.  I made a jump once before for "better" and
>>it was (work-wise) a very bad call.  Life-wise, it worked out very well
>>(I met my wife because I moved for the job), but I was miserable for
>>about 2 years, and unemployed for 6 months of that.
>>
>>
> I'm glad you found something you like and I hope that it lasts for as
> long as you want it to.

Same here.  My dad and I had a chat not long before he passed away a 
couple years ago; he confided in me that if he had it to do again, he 
would have been less loyal to his employer (not to say "disloyal" by any 
means - he certainly was honourable and would have been regardless) 
because it's not a reciprocated loyalty.  He worked for the same company 
for decades only to have them pull the rug out from under the retirees.  
Fortunately, dad kept *everything* about post-retirement benefits, so 
they did get a payout in the end, but not without a big legal battle.

> And as my old granny used to say. "What's for you, won't go past you."

Your granny sounds like a wise woman.

>> Current job sent me to
>>Barcelona a few years ago (and actually, it was before I was in this job
>>- I was doing some of the job prior to moving back into the department),
>>and this year is looking like I'll get to at least go to Europe
>>(probably Germany) and Australia, possibly also New Zealand and Japan
>>(the latter will be on my own dime to visit my brother - I figure if I'm
>>"in the neighborhood" I should go visit him in Osaka).
> 
> The brotherly thing to do, IMO. :)
> Keep us posted it sounds like it could be Pov-Con on a world tour. :)

I will - it's always fun to meet online friends IRL.  Most of my longtime 
online friends are here next month, and I have a get-together at my place 
for them.  Wouldn't have it any other way. :-)

>>I really enjoy travel - the actual "getting there" bit isn't a lot of
>>fun, but once I'm there, I like to get out and see things.
>>
> In a nutshell! But my wife actually likes the travel part. (Weird :)

Well, just remember, we're all unique, just like everyone else. ;-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:04:02 +0000, Phil Cook wrote:

> And lo on Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:58:42 -0000, Jim Henderson
> <nos### [at] nospamcom> did spake, saying:
> 
>> So I use an RF transmitter instead,
>> and that generally works well.
> 
> They used to be illegal here. Well to be precise you were using a device
> that sent a signal that your radio could receive wirelessly and thus by
> law were classified as a broadcaster, for which you needed a licence
> costing a few grand. Only got changed at the end of 2006 so as to allow
> low-power broadcasters.

Yes, over here anything over a couple watts of transmit power (IIRC) 
requires a license.  I actually have a radio license (amateur radio, 
novice class license), but it covers different frequency ranges than 
something like this would use.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 8 Feb 2008 15:50:30 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
>But overall, how's over there?

Not too bad

January 16 2008 - The unemployment rate remained at 5.3% - down 0.1% over the
quarter and down 0.1% on last year. 29.36 million people were in work in the
period September to November according to the labour force survey (LFS). This is
the highest on record, up by 175,000 on the quarter, and up by 263,000 on the
last year. 


Regards
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 8 Feb 2008 16:01:19 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>Oh, I see what you mean.  You have to understand, though, that I worked 
>in a factory while in college assembling paint sprayers; there were those 
>who were content to just follow a set of instructions from 7-4 every day, 
>and then leave the factory and live their lives; work was a means to a 
>living, rather than being their life.  There's a certain appeal to that.

There is at that. :)

>The danger with just going in and doing a job like that is that you can 
>be laid off, and if your skills are specialized (in that you do one set 
>of things day in and day out for, say, 15 years), that makes things 
>difficult when you try to find something else to do.

Very true

>>>I'm happy to talk either politics or religion.  Maybe that's why I don't
>>>have a lot of friends. ;-)
>> 
>> Maybe you weren't brought up in a region that was renowned for violence
>> and religious bigotry. I was and it is taboo for a very good reason IMO.
>> Although I understand others feel differently.:)
>
>I was raised Lutheran; make of that what you will. :-)  I'm *mostly* non-
>religious these days, truth be told.

I don't make much of it actually :) mainly because like you I am not religious. 

>>>I'm having a great debate right now with someone about the relative
>>>merits of calling Wicca a religion (he doesn't believe it is, and he's
>>>wrong <g>)
>> 
>> It is not surprising to me that the "Old Religion" is not considered a
>> religion by some.
>
>Same here.  Though arguably, Wicca itself is relatively new (founded in 
>the '50s), but based on far older traditions.

made a goode movie - The Wicca man :)

>> and the US armed forces holding weekly services for those who
>
>Who.....?  I think you forgot to finish a sentence here. <g>

Oops! copy and paste error. Your text :)

>You'd better believe it.  He's now taking to schoolyard tactics and 
>really making himself look foolish in the process.

You are winning :)


>Wow, that's really something.  I think we're in (outside of our primary 
>mortgage - we have an equity line as well) about $70K, but *most* of that 
>is secured debt.  Only about $15K is unsecured credit card debt, and the 
>majority of that will be paid off in the next 90 days (tax refund).

Just over 10 years ago I got made redundant with a good package. Since then I've
not had any major debts. 


>> It looks like its going to Hades in a wheelbarrow. :) But then I've been
>> hearing that all my life. If you extrapolate that back there must have
>> been a Golden Age :-)
>
>LOL; why did I just think of "The Pirate Planet"?

I don't know. The idea goes back before Dr Who.

>>>Yep.  I have to admit that I'm concerned about my retirement fund;
>> 
>> I've decided to work until I die. :)
>> But then I like my work. Thinking about it I just like working :)
>
>Same here; though oddly I'm here instead of doing the stuff I need to 
>just at the moment. :-)

LOL 


>Same here.  My dad and I had a chat not long before he passed away a 
>couple years ago; he confided in me that if he had it to do again, he 
>would have been less loyal to his employer (not to say "disloyal" by any 
>means - he certainly was honourable and would have been regardless) 
>because it's not a reciprocated loyalty.  He worked for the same company 
>for decades only to have them pull the rug out from under the retirees.  
>Fortunately, dad kept *everything* about post-retirement benefits, so 
>they did get a payout in the end, but not without a big legal battle.

Don't you love our lords and masters :)

>> And as my old granny used to say. "What's for you, won't go past you."
>
>Your granny sounds like a wise woman.

Well that is an attitude designed to keep people in their places, I feel.

 
>> The brotherly thing to do, IMO. :)
>> Keep us posted it sounds like it could be Pov-Con on a world tour. :)
>
>I will - it's always fun to meet online friends IRL.  Most of my longtime 
>online friends are here next month, and I have a get-together at my place 
>for them.  Wouldn't have it any other way. :-)
>

I think that I've only met one. That was Tom Melly who has drifted away from
Pov.


>Well, just remember, we're all unique, just like everyone else. ;-)
>

Unless you're a clone :)

Regards
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:34:09 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> Not too bad
> 
> January 16 2008 - The unemployment rate remained at 5.3% - down 0.1%
> over the quarter and down 0.1% on last year. 29.36 million people were
> in work in the period September to November according to the labour
> force survey (LFS). This is the highest on record, up by 175,000 on the
> quarter, and up by 263,000 on the last year.

More or less that demonstrates my point; at the same time, I know they 
play games with the numbers to make them look better than they really 
are, but that's about what I recalled hearing cited on PMQT a couple 
weeks ago. :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:53:43 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 8 Feb 2008 16:01:19 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>>Oh, I see what you mean.  You have to understand, though, that I worked
>>in a factory while in college assembling paint sprayers; there were
>>those who were content to just follow a set of instructions from 7-4
>>every day, and then leave the factory and live their lives; work was a
>>means to a living, rather than being their life.  There's a certain
>>appeal to that.
> 
> There is at that. :)

Uh huh.  I think there's a scale on which people define themselves; at 
one end is 100% based on your work achievements, and the other end is 
100% based on personal life.  Most people are somewhere in between.

>>The danger with just going in and doing a job like that is that you can
>>be laid off, and if your skills are specialized (in that you do one set
>>of things day in and day out for, say, 15 years), that makes things
>>difficult when you try to find something else to do.
> 
> Very true

It's a balancing act; some get it right, some don't.  The challenge is 
finding the right balance for the individual, because it's different for 
everyone.

>>>>I'm happy to talk either politics or religion.  Maybe that's why I
>>>>don't have a lot of friends. ;-)
>>> 
>>> Maybe you weren't brought up in a region that was renowned for
>>> violence and religious bigotry. I was and it is taboo for a very good
>>> reason IMO. Although I understand others feel differently.:)
>>
>>I was raised Lutheran; make of that what you will. :-)  I'm *mostly*
>>non- religious these days, truth be told.
> 
> I don't make much of it actually :) mainly because like you I am not
> religious.

Same here.  Well, on the first bit; obviously on the second bit. :-)

>>>>I'm having a great debate right now with someone about the relative
>>>>merits of calling Wicca a religion (he doesn't believe it is, and he's
>>>>wrong <g>)
>>> 
>>> It is not surprising to me that the "Old Religion" is not considered a
>>> religion by some.
>>
>>Same here.  Though arguably, Wicca itself is relatively new (founded in
>>the '50s), but based on far older traditions.
>>
> made a goode movie - The Wicca man :)

The Wicker Man, you mean. ;-)

>>> and the US armed forces holding weekly services for those who
>>
>>Who.....?  I think you forgot to finish a sentence here. <g>
> 
> Oops! copy and paste error. Your text :)

Ah.

>>You'd better believe it.  He's now taking to schoolyard tactics and
>>really making himself look foolish in the process.
> 
> You are winning :)

But of course. :-)

>>Wow, that's really something.  I think we're in (outside of our primary
>>mortgage - we have an equity line as well) about $70K, but *most* of
>>that is secured debt.  Only about $15K is unsecured credit card debt,
>>and the majority of that will be paid off in the next 90 days (tax
>>refund).
> 
> Just over 10 years ago I got made redundant with a good package. Since
> then I've not had any major debts.

That's one thing that I wish had happened when I got let go some 15 years 
ago from the job I was working; but I was so angry, I didn't even think 
about asking for severance.  Had only been there 18 mos, though.

>>> It looks like its going to Hades in a wheelbarrow. :) But then I've
>>> been hearing that all my life. If you extrapolate that back there must
>>> have been a Golden Age :-)
>>
>>LOL; why did I just think of "The Pirate Planet"?
> 
> I don't know. The idea goes back before Dr Who.

Well, yeah, but I think that might be the first time I ran across that 
particular theme.

>>>>Yep.  I have to admit that I'm concerned about my retirement fund;
>>> 
>>> I've decided to work until I die. :)
>>> But then I like my work. Thinking about it I just like working :)
>>
>>Same here; though oddly I'm here instead of doing the stuff I need to
>>just at the moment. :-)
> 
> LOL

In some ways it is kinda an odd job, because the hours are "fixed" but 
they're not fixed, if you know what I mean.

>>Same here.  My dad and I had a chat not long before he passed away a
>>couple years ago; he confided in me that if he had it to do again, he
>>would have been less loyal to his employer (not to say "disloyal" by any
>>means - he certainly was honourable and would have been regardless)
>>because it's not a reciprocated loyalty.  He worked for the same company
>>for decades only to have them pull the rug out from under the retirees.
>>Fortunately, dad kept *everything* about post-retirement benefits, so
>>they did get a payout in the end, but not without a big legal battle.
> 
> Don't you love our lords and masters :)

Yeah, right up to the point they decide they don't need you.

>>> And as my old granny used to say. "What's for you, won't go past you."
>>
>>Your granny sounds like a wise woman.
> 
> Well that is an attitude designed to keep people in their places, I
> feel.

Well, I don't know about that, at least not my reading from what you 
wrote.  It sounds more a sort of fatalistic approach (not unlike my own 
approach to life at that).  Whatever happens happens sort of thing.

>>> The brotherly thing to do, IMO. :)
>>> Keep us posted it sounds like it could be Pov-Con on a world tour. :)
>>
>>I will - it's always fun to meet online friends IRL.  Most of my
>>longtime online friends are here next month, and I have a get-together
>>at my place for them.  Wouldn't have it any other way. :-)
>>
>>
> I think that I've only met one. That was Tom Melly who has drifted away
> from Pov.

I used to live not far from Dan Farmer, but sadly never did get an 
opportunity to meet him IRL.  

>>Well, just remember, we're all unique, just like everyone else. ;-)
>>
>>
> Unless you're a clone :)

Ah, but at the point that the clone becomes sentient, then the clone's 
experiences are going to be different from yours.  Think Will & Thomas 
Riker. :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 11 Feb 2008 00:38:21 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:34:09 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> Not too bad
>> 
>> January 16 2008 - The unemployment rate remained at 5.3% - down 0.1%
>> over the quarter and down 0.1% on last year. 29.36 million people were
>> in work in the period September to November according to the labour
>> force survey (LFS). This is the highest on record, up by 175,000 on the
>> quarter, and up by 263,000 on the last year.
>
>More or less that demonstrates my point; at the same time, I know they 
>play games with the numbers to make them look better than they really 
>are, but that's about what I recalled hearing cited on PMQT a couple 
>weeks ago. :-)
>
>Jim

It might if you can believe the "porkies" that all politicians are born
sprouting :)
Anyway I wasn't arguing (I think :)

Regards
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:49:57 -0000, Jim Henderson  
<nos### [at] nospamcom> did spake, saying:

> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:54:17 +0000, Phil Cook wrote:
>
>>> What, that people have to evolve their skills?  That's the way the
>>> world is (at least in the so-called "western world") these days.  Adapt
>>> or die....It sounds harsh, but it's reality.
>>
>> Except ever since conveyor-belt style systems were introduced the skills
>> gap has gotten wider and more difficult to jump.
>
> True, but nobody ever said life was easy, either.  The problem is that
> it's often difficult to distinguish between lazy/unmotivated and when
> something's truly too difficult.

True, some people think that because they've just one type of job they  
*deserve* exactly the same type of job regardless of availabilty and  
reject anything else. I may have mentioned my father who went from TV  
repairman to shop manager to refuse collector to warehouse manager.

>>> I'm happy to talk either politics or religion.  Maybe that's why I
>>> don't have a lot of friends. ;-)
>>
>> Heh my current favourite topic is how the Conservative Party is
>> promising to either bring back or abolish things that they removed or
>> introduced last time they were in power. No-one remembers that's the
>> trouble.
>
> We've watched a bit of that discussion on PMQT (we get about 30 minutes
> of that a week on CSPAN over here).  Of course, PMQT is entertaining in
> and of itself as you watch people try to avoid answering direct questions
> directly.

for people read politicians :-)

>>>> How very true. Debt is a major problem here in the UK.
>>>
>>> Yeah, I understand that you guys are catching the sub-prime mortgage
>>> wave that hit us the end of last year.  Don't get bitten.
>>
>> Big fuss quite a while ago about banks encouraging people to lie about
>> their earnings in order to qualify for a mortgage, ah well I dealt with
>> that on my blog some time ago. But Northern Rock is still a touchy
>> subject in terms of the sub-prime wave.
>
> Yeah, ain't that the truth.  I need to read your blog entry, somehow it
> didn't show up.  That's on LJ, isn't it?

I did sign up for LJ to read your entries my actual blog's on  
http://flipc.blogspot.com

>>>  I also understand
>>> that there's been an interesting development in a bank bought by Citi
>>> over there - that they're terminating accounts for people with *good*
>>> credit because they're not making any money on interest.  Terminating
>>> accounts for people who pay their cards off every month:  What's the
>>> world coming to?
>>
>> Egg. Supposedly terminating accounts of high-risk customers (about 7% of
>> their base) i.e. those whose credit ratings have changed for the worse
>> since they applied; trouble is some of those terminated customers are
>> pointing at their perfect credit ratings. The common factors for these
>> people appear to be their status as homeowners and that they pay off the
>> balance in full every month. IOW they don't make any money for Egg and
>> instead could be persuaded to take out a big fat loan instead using
>> their home as collateral.
>
> Egg, that's the one.  We're generally like that as well (got one card
> that's nearly maxxed out at over $10K, due to the need to replace our
> boiler - but at a great interest rate; the others don't get used hardly
> at all).  Yet they keep raising our limits; it's to the point that I'm
> actively afraid to use the cards for fear I'll go crazy and max them all
> out and not be able to make even the minimum payments.  Better they just
> sit in the safe unused.

They keep pestering me to borrow money. My parents find this amusing when  
I mention it, apparently back in ye olden days you pratically had to beg  
and sign your contract in blood to get a loan; now it's - "please borrow  
money off us"

>> Not really new - MBNA added an annual charge to people who didn't use
>> their credit card enough and apparently First Direct started charging a
>> monthly fee for customers who didn't credit enough money into their
>> accounts each month.
>
> Huh, now that I wasn't aware of.
>
>> The option is simple - move companies, there's enough about.
>
> Yep, same approach we use.  It pays to be mercenary about what banks you
> do business with these days.

It's not as if it's difficult to switch these days.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

On 11 Feb 2008 00:46:49 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:


>Uh huh.  I think there's a scale on which people define themselves; at 
>one end is 100% based on your work achievements, and the other end is 
>100% based on personal life.  Most people are somewhere in between.

That makes sense.



>> made a goode movie - The Wicca man :)
>
>The Wicker Man, you mean. ;-)
>

It sounds the same to me :)


>> 
>> You are winning :)
>
>But of course. :-)
>

Roll up! Roll up! See the massacre! 
Tickets, a groat children a bawbee.


>In some ways it is kinda an odd job, because the hours are "fixed" but 
>they're not fixed, if you know what I mean.
>

Mine too, remember "you can't do enough for a good company"


>> Don't you love our lords and masters :)
>
>Yeah, right up to the point they decide they don't need you.
>
Ain't that true. N.B. Andrew :)

>>>> And as my old granny used to say. "What's for you, won't go past you."
>>>
>>>Your granny sounds like a wise woman.
>> 
>> Well that is an attitude designed to keep people in their places, I
>> feel.
>
>Well, I don't know about that, at least not my reading from what you 
>wrote.  It sounds more a sort of fatalistic approach (not unlike my own 
>approach to life at that).  Whatever happens happens sort of thing.
>

She did mean it kindly but she was born a hundred years ago. People's attitudes
were different then. I believe that you make your own luck. Again N.B. Andrew :)


>I used to live not far from Dan Farmer, but sadly never did get an 
>opportunity to meet him IRL.  
>

Shame.

>>>Well, just remember, we're all unique, just like everyone else. ;-)
>>>
>>>
>> Unless you're a clone :)
>
>Ah, but at the point that the clone becomes sentient, then the clone's 
>experiences are going to be different from yours.  Think Will & Thomas 
>Riker. :-)
>

If you insist :)

Regards
	Stephen

Post a reply to this message