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"Darren New" wrote:
> I admit it's a pretty vague question, more something to start thinking
> about than something that would have an answer.
>
> So what bits aren't done yet? What plug-ins would you want available?
It's a bit fuzzy. Let's take rendering engines as an example. Let's say we
have the engines A, B and C. Each of them support a set of features,
including state-of-the-art features, but none of them have it all. So if you
need *all* state of the art features in your game, no rendering engine
exists for that. However, some of the engines may come with source code, and
there's a good chance that extending one of those to include the missing
features will be less work than making a whole new graphics engine from
scratch.
> And what's a good tutorial on the state-of-the-art of "AI" in game
> engines?
You don't need a tutorial for that; you need a bookshelf. There are few
completely new techniques used in state-of-the-art AI - rather, it's old
techniques that have been extended, recombined and made more advanced to a
very high degree. This means that it's not very easy to summarize.
> I look at the unreal engine, and from what I've read so far, "AI" seems to
> imply "figure out what direction the player is from here, and figure out
> how to get there."
To a high degree yes, but it's also:
- how to attack the enemy while keeping oneself in minimum danger (seeking
cover)
- how to cooperate to best take out the enemy while not getting in each
other's way
- how to percieve and correctly use the environment, like elevators,
sidewalks, terminals, cannons...
...and that's just in FPS-games. These task sound simple, but in reality
they're far from "not especially difficult".
> Not especially difficult AI. What sorts of things
> do "AI" programs in games really do?
In games like Oblivion and Grand Theft Auto, NPC's must evaluate their needs
and plan ways to satisfy them - like go to a shop and buy some food, then
return home, sit at your table and eat the food. If the shop keeper has been
killed, another shop must be found - or there is the option of stealing
food. Every decision must furthermore be based on the NPC's knowledge of the
world, which may be outdated. An internal model of the world must be kept in
the NPC's memory, so it doesn't seem to know things it isn't supposed to be
able to know.
Other types of games have completely different requirements for AI. For
example race-simulations and fighter games.
Rune
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"Darren New" <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote in message
news:47389a96$1@news.povray.org...
> Like, already, most engines don't do the mesh editting, as far as I can
> see.
I don't know about other engines, but CryEngine2 now has a basic mesh
editor within the program. I say basic, but it may not be, it 'looks' basic
to me.
> So what bits aren't done yet? What plug-ins would you want available?
I'll think about that one after I've played the full Crysis game... ;)
>
> And what's a good tutorial on the state-of-the-art of "AI" in game
> engines? I look at the unreal engine, and from what I've read so far, "AI"
> seems to imply "figure out what direction the player is from here, and
> figure out how to get there." Not especially difficult AI. What sorts of
> things do "AI" programs in games really do?
Well, in the Crysis demo, if you shoot at a grunt from a mediocre
distance, say, 300 to 500 yards(?), you'll have a hell of a job to kill him
through your 'scope as he strafes from side to side rather than running for
the hills crying for Mum... ;) Seriously, I think the guys at Crytek have
looked into this side of it more compared to FarCry and perhaps other
companies games too.
Can't wait for the Full to see what really happens. Four days? WooHoo!
:)
(Check out their editor when it comes out Darren, and see how they do it,
it's just brilliant! Unseriously buggy, (everything works), but brilliant!)
~Steve~
>
> --
> Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
> Remember the good old days, when we
> used to complain about cryptography
> being export-restricted?
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Rune wrote:
> It's a bit fuzzy. Let's take rendering engines as an example. Let's say we
> have the engines A, B and C. Each of them support a set of features,
> including state-of-the-art features, but none of them have it all.
Sure. Nothing but economics stops someone from putting them all in,
right? Economics and processing power?
> This means that it's not very easy to summarize.
OK.
> To a high degree yes, but it's also:
> - how to attack the enemy while keeping oneself in minimum danger (seeking
> cover)
> - how to cooperate to best take out the enemy while not getting in each
> other's way
> - how to percieve and correctly use the environment, like elevators,
> sidewalks, terminals, cannons...
Ah, OK. I guess that makes sense.
> ....and that's just in FPS-games. These task sound simple, but in reality
> they're far from "not especially difficult".
No, actually, it sounds pretty visciously difficult to get right, to me. :-)
> In games like Oblivion and Grand Theft Auto, NPC's must evaluate their needs
> and plan ways to satisfy them - like go to a shop and buy some food, then
> return home, sit at your table and eat the food. If the shop keeper has been
> killed, another shop must be found - or there is the option of stealing
> food. Every decision must furthermore be based on the NPC's knowledge of the
> world, which may be outdated. An internal model of the world must be kept in
> the NPC's memory, so it doesn't seem to know things it isn't supposed to be
> able to know.
Hmmm. Yah, I can see that, where you have something more than what you
get in (say) Half-life in terms of plottiness. :-)
> Other types of games have completely different requirements for AI. For
> example race-simulations and fighter games.
Certainly. OK, I guess all that makes sense. Thanks!
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> And could it be sold cheaper then developing a new
> one with just certain features?
Yeah, that all makes sense. Thanks for your thought. :)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
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Darren New wrote:
> What's missing to make that happen?
Actually, I thought of a couple other things.
Getting AI friendlies to do what you want them to would seem to be a
difficult thing. It's pretty awkward right now, interface-wise.
Populus-style instructions, HL2-style instructions, Darwinia-style
instructions, none of them really seem satisfactory.
Conversations (between PC and NPC) are awkward, interface-wise. The
"pick a response from the menu" mechanism never seemed especially
in-game realistic. Of course, games where you have non-cutscene
conversations with others (IME) are usually telling a story, but it
would seem this is something we haven't figured out how to do even with
a 100x increase in compute power.
Or have games I haven't played improved this sort of thing?
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
It's not feature creep if you put it
at the end and adjust the release date.
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Conversations (between PC and NPC) are awkward, interface-wise.
> Or have games I haven't played improved this sort of thing?
Yes. In Half-Life 2 the playable character is completely silent. ;)
--
- Warp
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And lo on Thu, 06 Dec 2007 03:30:59 -0000, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>
did spake, saying:
> Darren New wrote:
>> What's missing to make that happen?
>
> Actually, I thought of a couple other things.
>
> Getting AI friendlies to do what you want them to would seem to be a
> difficult thing. It's pretty awkward right now, interface-wise.
> Populus-style instructions, HL2-style instructions, Darwinia-style
> instructions, none of them really seem satisfactory.
Let's see a toggle between a 'return fire' and 'shoot on contact' stance
with 'advance' 'retreat' and 'go there' buttons. For a console easily
mapped to the directional buttons, if the AI is good enough to use cover
and has adequate path-finding that'd do me.
> Conversations (between PC and NPC) are awkward, interface-wise. The
> "pick a response from the menu" mechanism never seemed especially
> in-game realistic.
I liked what happened if you dropped the intelligence of your character in
Neverwinter Nights.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Phil Cook wrote:
> Let's see a toggle between a 'return fire' and 'shoot on contact' stance
> with 'advance' 'retreat' and 'go there' buttons. For a console easily
> mapped to the directional buttons, if the AI is good enough to use cover
> and has adequate path-finding that'd do me.
If they're just there helping you to kill baddies, yah. When you get
into things like "bridge this gap with that plank" or "use your rocket
launcher on that door", I can see it getting as complicated as any other
character interaction.
Or how about "Stay here and cover me" or "lay down suppressing fire"? :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
It's not feature creep if you put it
at the end and adjust the release date.
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Darren New wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> What's missing to make that happen?
>
> Actually, I thought of a couple other things.
>
> Getting AI friendlies to do what you want them to would seem to be a
> difficult thing. It's pretty awkward right now, interface-wise.
> Populus-style instructions, HL2-style instructions, Darwinia-style
> instructions, none of them really seem satisfactory.
I'd be happy if my friendly AIs didn't stand in fire or poison clouds in
Diablo II.
Regards,
John
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John VanSickle nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2007/12/06 18:59:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> What's missing to make that happen?
>>
>> Actually, I thought of a couple other things.
>>
>> Getting AI friendlies to do what you want them to would seem to be a
>> difficult thing. It's pretty awkward right now, interface-wise.
>> Populus-style instructions, HL2-style instructions, Darwinia-style
>> instructions, none of them really seem satisfactory.
>
> I'd be happy if my friendly AIs didn't stand in fire or poison clouds in
> Diablo II.
>
> Regards,
> John
Or my mage did'nt fire his wand of lightning sideway in a small halway in
Baldus's Gate... even if that wand is NOT equiped.
--
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
Atheism: I can't believe this shit!
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