Sometimes, i wonder why there is this feeling in the povray community that
everything should be built from scratch.  What i mean is:  while povray is
an excellent and very versatile software it comes with a very limited
"standard library" of objects and textures and this sure hampers "code
reuse".  Specially because this is the 2000's, but the small povray stdlib
still comes with include files from the 1990's!

I've seen such amazing models, textures and techiniques from many povray
enthusiasts from over the years.  There are at least two nice lens flare
include files from well-known POV-Team members, but that aren't featured in
the stdlib!  What about the many tree and grass macro packages?  Why isn't
there at least one of them in the standard library?

I wish povray was a lot more used, but i'm thinking it suffers a bit from
not being "integrated":  if i was a newbie and wanted to quickly create
stunning scenes, i'd have to crawl the web gathering bits here and there.
Just imagine:  the other way, the guy wants a kitchen scene and he goes
like:

#include "kitchen/tiles.inc"
#include "kitchen/dish.inc"
#include "kitchen/bottles.inc"
#include "kitchen/food/fruits.inc"

Or stuff like that.

This is just a rant/wish, but if i could in some way of another to make this
software more acknowledged, i would.  Heck, i would gladly donate my sample
scenes and code i post here, without hesitation, crappy as they may be! :P

What do you guys think?  Any chances of something like that happenning just
in time for Pov-ray 3.7?  If you're fearing the trouble of searching for
and categorizing all the gathered textures, objects etc, i'd gladly
contribute to it.

What would it need to get foreign work into povray standard include files?

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:

> Sometimes, i wonder why there is this feeling in the povray community that
> everything should be built from scratch.  What i mean is:  while povray is
> an excellent and very versatile software it comes with a very limited
> "standard library" of objects and textures and this sure hampers "code
> reuse".  Specially because this is the 2000's, but the small povray stdlib
> still comes with include files from the 1990's!

I've been tempted to open POV-Mart, a web page made to look like a 
catalog of stuff, with .INC files for everything.

Maybe when I'm not on dial-up...

Regards,
John

Post a reply to this message

"nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Sometimes, i wonder why there is this feeling in the povray community that
> everything should be built from scratch.  What i mean is:  while povray is
> an excellent and very versatile software it comes with a very limited
> "standard library" of objects and textures and this sure hampers "code
> reuse".  Specially because this is the 2000's, but the small povray stdlib
> still comes with include files from the 1990's!
>
> I've seen such amazing models, textures and techiniques from many povray
> enthusiasts from over the years.  There are at least two nice lens flare
> include files from well-known POV-Team members, but that aren't featured in
> the stdlib!  What about the many tree and grass macro packages?  Why isn't
> there at least one of them in the standard library?
>
> I wish povray was a lot more used, but i'm thinking it suffers a bit from
> not being "integrated":  if i was a newbie and wanted to quickly create
> stunning scenes, i'd have to crawl the web gathering bits here and there.
> Just imagine:  the other way, the guy wants a kitchen scene and he goes
> like:
>
> #include "kitchen/tiles.inc"
> #include "kitchen/dish.inc"
> #include "kitchen/bottles.inc"
> #include "kitchen/food/fruits.inc"
>
> Or stuff like that.
>
> This is just a rant/wish, but if i could in some way of another to make this
> software more acknowledged, i would.  Heck, i would gladly donate my sample
> scenes and code i post here, without hesitation, crappy as they may be! :P
>
> What do you guys think?  Any chances of something like that happenning just
> in time for Pov-ray 3.7?  If you're fearing the trouble of searching for
> and categorizing all the gathered textures, objects etc, i'd gladly
> contribute to it.
>
> What would it need to get foreign work into povray standard include files?

Yeah, I've thought the same thing. Would the people who provide all the code
examples mind if some were put into the standard include files? I know that
there's a tradition of doing one's own work, and I myself have reinvented
the wheel several times (mostly poorly :)), but it would be nice if some of
those textures and objects came with POV-Ray.

Are there good reasons for not doing this? Perhaps the licensing would be
difficult...

I would of course be happy to contribute my own objects and textures, such
as they are.

Maybe the revival of the POV-Ray objects collection would do the trick.

-Stefan Sittler

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> What would it need to get foreign work into povray standard include files?

I think one problem hampering this is integration within POV's menu 
system.  Currently, most people have far more potential in the include 
files they already have, then they realize.  Sure, you COULD browse the 
docs (as it lists most (or all?) of the includes), or browse the source 
code itself, but most people never do.

I'd recommend starting by making an improved Include menu (I know 
there's at least one project out there that does so, but I don't 
remember who made it) which features EVERYTHING from the Standard 
Include files.

The next step, would be to find what you believe are the most common / 
useful include files that aren't bundled with POV-Ray, and work them 
into your Include menu (with the authors' permission, of course).

Once that's done, petition the POV-Team to replace the standard Include 
menu with your own custom one.

...Chambers

PS You DID ask what it would take to get done :)

Post a reply to this message

Ben Chambers wrote:
> I'd recommend starting by making an improved Include menu (I know 

Bah, it's the Insert menu.

> there's at least one project out there that does so, but I don't 

OK, the best insert menu addon I know of is at 
http://www.f-lohmueller.de/pov_tut/down/insert_a.htm



And I know that the current Insert menu lists the current include files, 
but that's not enough IMO.  Each one should be a separate sub-menu, with 
an entry for each and every material / texture / finish / shape / 
kitchen sink.

Then, we'd see more people using what we already have.

...Chambers

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> What would it need to get foreign work into povray standard include files?

Well the first issue is that we need to get a written release of permission,
plus if the work is based on another work, that needs permission, etc etc ...

I don't deny the standard scenes and includes could be supplemented usefully,
perhaps as an additional download (or included with the standard one - I
think people are a bit less worried about download sizes now than they were
ten years ago).

In terms of an object collection, while it's something I'd love to see, to do
it properly would probably require that we have some sort of standard means
to 'encapsulate' an object. By that I mean that if you want to for example
'#include "kitchensink.inc" in your scene, it would help if the way you /use/
the kitchen sink is standardized, with respect to the initial size, placement
and so forth. Another possibility is to have some standard 'knobs' that all
such objects share (where 'knobs' are a set of predefined SDL variables that
can be set prior to the #include, or passed in the macro call if applicable).

I have some other ideas for objects, too, but that's not for now.

If the community wanted to work together to come up with a system that would
smoothly integrate with other people's workflow by providing some standards
such as this I'd be quite prepared to support it by setting up a site for it
and providing whatever hosting support is needed.

-- Chris
   POV-Team

Post a reply to this message

Ben Chambers:
"I think one problem hampering this is integration within POV's menu
system."

While i'm probably in the minority here, i don't use povray menu system at
all:  i use Linux at home and open the pov file i'm working on and a few
include files in vim.  It gives me nice syntax highlight and identifier
completion.  Other than that, i know a large deal of the language and what
i do not know or have doubts, i lookup the manual.

Sometimes, i do some poving at work -- my workplace luckily doesn't feature
the "No pov" sign as featured in some JVP's images :) -- running Windows,
but i still don't use it to or else i may forget the language and
constructs. yeah, call me a gluton for punishment... :P

Anyway, my point is that while integrated Insert Menu would be good, it
doesn't hamper not including more and more up-to-date include files.

Chris Cason:
"t would help if the way you /use/
the kitchen sink is standardized, with respect to the initial size,
placement
and so forth."

Yes, indeed.  Very good point.  I myself use the following convention:
model an object freely and when i think it's good enough to be in the
libray, i use a "metric checkered plane" in the background and orthographic
camera placed -5*z.  Then, i resize the object so that either height or
width fits 1 unit wide and then try to place that exactly at the center
(for symetric objects) or placed upon the origin (for chairs, for
instance).  Following that, it's easy to place it anywhere in scenes or
rotate and scale according to current needs.

"If the community wanted to work together to come up with a system that
would
smoothly integrate with other people's workflow by providing some standards
such as this I'd be quite prepared to support it by setting up a site for it
and providing whatever hosting support is needed."

Listen to Chris, people!

I've seen such efforts in the past, like the old Povray Objects Collection,
but this is an effort to actually get some of those INTO povray standard
libs.  I'm more than eager to do that.  Anyone with me?

Post a reply to this message

"nemesis" <nam### [at] gmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:web.4559c29c341a4ab7f2ff13290@news.povray.org...
> Listen to Chris, people!
>
> I've seen such efforts in the past, like the old Povray Objects 
> Collection,
> but this is an effort to actually get some of those INTO povray standard
> libs.  I'm more than eager to do that.  Anyone with me?
>

I certainly would support such an action!!

As Ben Chambers has mentioned, there is 
http://www.f-lohmueller.de/pov_tut/down/insert_a.htm which is a very nice 
addition to the insert menu; there is the isoCSG menu by Cristoph Hormann 
(http://www.imagico.de/pov/tools.html); both should be standard in POV-Ray, 
I believe. They reside in my Insert menu, and while I do not use them dayly, 
they come in very handy as soon as I need something specific.

Concerning objects, I think those would need a special menu, perhaps 
separate even from the Insert menu? Alternatively, a revival of the POV-Ray 
Object Collection is perhaps indicated. In any case, some standard rules 
should be defined in order to be allowed to upload, like using the POV unit 
as the norm (with automatic scaling to metric or imperial systems?) etc, 
etc...

Finally, I agree with Nemesis that we shouldn't always (have to) re-invent 
the wheel. Creating from scratch is certainly very useful for learning (I do 
it often), but it can be in the way to a creative process. In that latter 
case, being able to pull things out of the box, as it were, works much 
better and is much more productive.

Thomas

Post a reply to this message

Chris Cason wrote:
> Well the first issue is that we need to get a written release of permission,
> plus if the work is based on another work, that needs permission, etc etc ...

I was thinking, when I saw the short-code contest announcement, that it 
would be cool to see a "texture" contest. One submits a texture, be it 
wood, stone, leaves, water, skin, hair, whatever, in a fairly simple 
scene, self-contained, not unlike Tek's recent "artistic water".

I'm not sure how good an idea this is, but I thought it would be a cool 
way to showcase POV, showing off its strengths relative to more 
model-oriented renderers.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     "That's pretty. Where is it?"
         "Channelwood."
     "We should go there on vacation."
         "..."

Post a reply to this message

"Smws" <smw### [at] poboxcom> wrote:
> Are there good reasons for not doing this? Perhaps the licensing would be
> difficult...

I'm guessing most povray code published to websites like
povray.text.scene-files, Povray Objects Collection or even the IRTC are in
the public domain.  They were published without a copyright attached and in
some of them it's even impossible to determine any way to contact the
original author (no email or out-of-date).  Besides, people posting to
these places seem to actually WANT to contribute to povray in a certain
sense or else they wouldn't publish it.  I may be wrong...

> Maybe the revival of the POV-Ray objects collection would do the trick.

It would still fall in the same problem:  someone has to search over the web
to have a nice library.  I'm thinking more of bringing the povray standard
include files a facelift for more modern times.  I'm not thinking about
replacing the old files, but to complement them with more modern and
featureful addons.  If you want basic textures for objects far away, stick
with the classics, if you want very detailed layered texture_mapped
textures, you have it in the very own povray stdlib as well.

I want a more modern standard complex object other than the bicubic_patch
Utah Teapot that comes with povray as well.  Blender has a monkey head! :D
Chairs, bottles, vases, dishes, a few furniture all come to mind as well.

It should be cool to cram into povray stdlib all the nice techniques the
povray community has come up with all over these years. :)

Post a reply to this message