Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> It looks like sh_t in Netscape 4.7. It was much better the other way.

  I don't really want to degrade the pages because of an old and obsolete
browser. If you have any suggestion on how could I modify the page so that
it will look better in N4, but without compromising its current look&feel
in newer browers, I'm ready to make those changes (as long as they make
sense, of course; things like "detect the browser version with javascript"
are out of question).

-- 
#macro N(D)#if(D>99)cylinder{M()#local D=div(D,104);M().5,2pigment{rgb M()}}
N(D)#end#end#macro M()<mod(D,13)-6mod(div(D,13)8)-3,10>#end blob{
N(11117333955)N(4254934330)N(3900569407)N(7382340)N(3358)N(970)}//  - Warp -

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Warp wrote:
> 
> Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> > It looks like sh_t in Netscape 4.7. It was much better the other way.
> 
>   I don't really want to degrade the pages because of an old and obsolete
> browser. If you have any suggestion on how could I modify the page so that
> it will look better in N4, but without compromising its current look&feel
> in newer browers, I'm ready to make those changes (as long as they make
> sense, of course; things like "detect the browser version with javascript"
> are out of question).

I just checked and whatever feature you are using for the navbar is broken
in both IE6 and in N4.7 so I don't really understand why you insist on using
something that is known to cause problems in both browsers. There are literally
millions of web pages on the internet that do not display these problems,
are perfectly functional using somewhat older computer technology, and do not
compromise site functionality or style. Style sheets may sound like a good
idea on the surface but everyone who attempts to use them run into problems
with the people they are trying to please the most and those are the visitors
to that site. If you want to cop some sort of elitist attitude that is
fine with me but I refuse to upgrade my browser just so it is compatible
with your broken site.

-- 
Ken Tyler

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Ken wrote:
> 
> Style sheets may sound like a good
> idea on the surface...

Style sheets *are* a good idea.

> I refuse to upgrade my browser just so it is compatible
> with your broken site.

If the site is written correctly, then it is your browser that is 
broken, not the site. If you refuse to upgrade to a non-broken browser, 
then you must accept the consequences of using faulty software, 
including the inability to render web pages as they should appear.

-Xplo

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Xplo Eristotle wrote:
> 
> Ken wrote:
> >
> > Style sheets may sound like a good
> > idea on the surface...
> 
> Style sheets *are* a good idea.

I could go into business making wheel rims for cars but if I don't put
the bolt holes in the right place they won't fit any car on the market.
The problem with style sheets is that the bolt holes are in the wrong
place and too many browsers don't support them. It's just bad business
to use them on a web page if you want to cater to the broadest range
of users that visit that site. And that's all I have to say about that.

-- 
Ken Tyler

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Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> I just checked and whatever feature you are using for the navbar is broken
> in both IE6 and in N4.7 so I don't really understand why you insist on using
> something that is known to cause problems in both browsers.

  The navigation bar is not "broken" in IE6. It works as a navigation bar,
but its location just doesn't stay fixed with respect to the viewport, but
scrolls with the rest of the page. I even succeeded in fixing the problem
which happened when the browser window was too narrow (now the "buttons"
should not overlap, but they stack nicely; they even should have whole
borders now).
  IMHO it performs its job in IE now, even though its position doesn't stay
fixed.
  Also take into account, that previously there was no navigation bar at
all, so a navigation bar at each page, even though at the very beginning,
is better than none.

  The pages pass the html validator at www.w3.org without error nor warnings,
as well as the CSS. This means that they are valid HTML 4.

  So in IE it works acceptably. In Netscape 6 / Mozilla it works superb.
The only browser which is reported to do a bad job is an outdated and obsolete
version of Netscape.

  If you want to stick to an old browser (which is getting even older as
time passes), then I don't think that's my headache. You can't expect me
to degrade the features of my pages just because some people out there are
using obsolete browsers and refuse to upgrade for some reason.
  If you want to think that I'm an elitist, then go ahead. However, it's
not elitistic, it's practical.
  Besides, complaining that someone uses features which a 5 years old browser
does not support is the same thing as complaining that someone is using
photons in his POV-Ray scene even though POV-Ray 3.1 does not support them.
The answer has always been simple: Upgrade POV-Ray.
  I don't see why I shouldn't use the current HTML standard (and I'm not
even using the most exotic features...).

  Using CSS makes my life easier. For example, if I want to change the
background color of all the <pre>...</pre> blocks (ie. the ones containing
povray code), I can change it in one single place, and it gets automatically
spawned everywhere where such block is used.

> Style sheets may sound like a good
> idea on the surface but everyone who attempts to use them run into problems
> with the people they are trying to please the most and those are the visitors
> to that site.

  Then why don't you go an complain to the pov-team that they are using
style-sheets in the html documentation? And what's worse, they even want
you to upgrade your IE to at least version 4 if you want to see the help
files ok! What an outrage! This should be fixed immediately. There are
millions of people out there using old versions of IE and refusing to
upgrade...

  No. I don't agree with you.

> I refuse to upgrade my browser just so it is compatible
> with your broken site.

  Firstly, if you don't want to upgrade your browser to a newer version,
that's your problem, not mine. If you want to use an old browser, then
fine, use it, but don't complain to me because it's not my problem. If
you want to upgrade to the third millenium, then upgrade your software.
  Secondly, how my site is "broken"? It's 100% valid standard HTML 4 and
it works ok with a modern browser.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

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Warp wrote:

>   Besides, complaining that someone uses features which a 5 years old browser

The version of Netscape I am using is only 2 years old. My operating system is
2.5 years older than that.

-- 
Ken Tyler

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Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet> wrote:
> The version of Netscape I am using is only 2 years old. My operating system is
> 2.5 years older than that.

  The fact that some minor update has been made to the browser 2 years ago
does not mean that it represents the top-of-the-line technology of HTML
rendering of 2 years ago. The HTML engine used by Netscape 4 is a lot older
than that and it hasn't been updated in any relevant way. Besides, 2 years
is a whole lot of time when speaking about computers.
  From what I can interpret from www.netscape.com, they don't even support
Netscape 4 anymore. At least I couldn't easily find any link to download it.
They have obviously stopped developing and supporting that version long time
ago (in favor of Netscape 6/7). This means that the longer you use that
version, the older it will get, and there will most probably be no updates
to it in order to add support for new technologies.

  So Netscape 4 is not supported nor developed anymore, it's old, it does
not support current standards and probably less than 1% of people use it
nowadays, and there's a newer and more modern version of the browser
supporting most of the current standards, freely downloadable.
  Why should I support Netscape 4? I see no good reason for that.

-- 
#macro M(A,N,D,L)plane{-z,-9pigment{mandel L*9translate N color_map{[0rgb x]
[1rgb 9]}scale<D,D*3D>*1e3}rotate y*A*8}#end M(-3<1.206434.28623>70,7)M(
-1<.7438.1795>1,20)M(1<.77595.13699>30,20)M(3<.75923.07145>80,99)// - Warp -

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Warp wrote:

>   So Netscape 4 is not supported nor developed anymore,

And Windows 98 is no longer in development yet 10's of millions of people
worldwide are still using it as are millions of people still using Netscape
4.x browsers. I consider it a poor design choice on your part to exclude those
people who use it and it certainly speaks poorly of your customer service
attitude. If you want your site completely usable by only 5-10% of all the
worlds computer users fine but don't expect me to keep upgrading to keep up
with it. Since there are reasonable alternatives that would satisfy everyone
your arguments are worthless.

P.S. I was running POV-Ray v2.2 in DOS today and it worked great. So much
for cutting edge technology.

-- 
Ken Tyler

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http://www.alistapart.com/stories/tohell/

Only in jest, of course. A little something I found tonight while trying to
figure out why IE6 isn't up to par like Netscape 6 (and 7?) on the CSS
stuff. Unrelated I guess.

I do see your side to this, commonality still holds a place out there on the
Internet. It's also obviously getting more and more upstaged by the changes
taking place in web browsing with every new "standard" devised.

Something I learned during that search, for which I never got a answer
exactly (yet), was that NS4.7 is said to have trouble with tables if a
graphic is right-aligned, or some such thing. Text can end up under it. Just
pointing out the fact older browser versions do have their faults and
sometimes it can help to upgrade if not for modernizing but just to be bug
free. Ultimately the user decides that themselves. And actually I saw a
similar thing occur while making a table for a web page recently, IE6 though
and not NS.

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Ken wrote:
> 
> The version of Netscape I am using...

...is ancient. And BROKEN.

For gods' sakes, Ken, stop acting like a fucking baby and upgrade 
already. Or don't. Personally I don't care; if you want everything to 
render wrong in your browser - and as time goes by, it will - so be it. 
Your arguments are so ridiculous, and your opinion so obviously set, 
that I can't justify the waste of time it would be to try to counter 
them with rational, calm debate. In time, harsh reality will make all 
such arguments in my stead.

And that's all *I* have to say about that.

-Xplo

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