Hi all.

Several people have showed their dissatisfaction with the current POV-Ray
Logo Competition.

It is too late to change any logos or any rules in the current competition.

Will the current competition do, or should we make a completely new one?

In case a whole new competition is made, the results of this competition are
practically useless. We can, however, use it to see which logos have
potential.

In case people generally think that we should arrange a new competition,
here's some ideas I have for it:

Better logo definitions.
Better discussion about what a logo is, and clearer definition of which
requirements the submitted logos should follow. Discussion about in which
form the final logos must be submitted. These discussions must be done
*before* the logos are created.

Better voting rules.
Better discussion about the voting rules. We could for example include a
voting option that will enable us to see how many people who support the
logos. This discussion must be done *before* the voting begins.

Logo improvement.
Better discussions about the individual logos, so that they can be improved
as much as possible. These discussions must all be done *before* the logos
are submitted.

More people.
I've heard about some French POV-Ray newsgroups, and I guess there's also
some Japanese, and maybe others. I think we should get the people in all
those newsgroups involved, both in creating logos, and in the voting. This
will require a lot of organization, but I hope it could be arranged.

More time.
I would think a deadline for the submission of logos could be the end of
year 2000. This would give plenty (but not too much) of time to discuss the
logo requirements, the logos, the voting rules, and all the other things.

More organization.
We need less confusion and clearer rules. We need to make rules good enough
*before* they are put into function, and not *after*. We need to keep track
on things, make plans, and have real deadlines... I will need people to help
me!

Official support.
After all rules has been made, but before the winner logo is chosen, I would
like the POV-team to say whether or not they will officially support the
logo that wins. It must be before the winner logo is chosen, because what
they must decide is whether they will accept the choice of the users or not.

So what do you think of this?

I hope to get as many replies as possible, because it seems that many people
care about this.

Greetings,

Rune

---
Updated March 15: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
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Rune wrote:

> More people.
> I've heard about some French POV-Ray newsgroups, and I guess there's also
> some Japanese, and maybe others. I think we should get the people in all
> those newsgroups involved, both in creating logos, and in the voting. This
> will require a lot of organization, but I hope it could be arranged.

Actually the announcement of this contest has been discussed in the
French groups and they have been participating in both the design
and voting phases of the contest.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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Rune wrote:
> Several people have showed their dissatisfaction with the current POV-Ray
> Logo Competition.

..(looking up and whistling)...

> In case a whole new competition is made, the results of this competition are
> practically useless. We can, however, use it to see which logos have
> potential.

It's certainly not useless.  There's plenty to learn from that
experience.
Let's get this voting process finished (maybe shorten the deadline, 1
month
is very long for just 16 logos), and use the results as a basis to
understand
WHY the "awarded" logos are good.  I'm pretty sure that almost every
"designer" feels that there is a very wide room for improvement, and
that
even the "winner" will be dissatisfied (artistically speaking) if his
(are there "her's" ? I don't think so) logo was used "as is".

> In case people generally think that we should arrange a new competition,
> here's some ideas I have for it:
> 
> Better logo definitions.
> Better discussion about what a logo is, and clearer definition of which
> requirements the submitted logos should follow. Discussion about in which
> form the final logos must be submitted. These discussions must be done
> *before* the logos are created.

Yep.  You already know my Point Of View about that.
 
> Better voting rules.
> Better discussion about the voting rules. We could for example include a
> voting option that will enable us to see how many people who support the
> logos. This discussion must be done *before* the voting begins.

Maybe giving points to each logo instead of ranking would help to
discernate
if a logo is "best liked" or "less disliked", or even if the whole set
of logos is mature enough to deserve being oficially used.  Maybe there
could be points by criterias (artistic, concept, tech, errr... sorry :).
Of course, it would make the voting process a little more complicated.
 
> More people.
> I've heard about some French POV-Ray newsgroups, and I guess there's also
> some Japanese, and maybe others. I think we should get the people in all
> those newsgroups involved, both in creating logos, and in the voting. This
> will require a lot of organization, but I hope it could be arranged.

As Ken said, it already happens, in a rather transparent manner (people
in the french group tend to frequent povray.org too...)
 
> More time.
> I would think a deadline for the submission of logos could be the end of
> year 2000. This would give plenty (but not too much) of time to discuss the
> logo requirements, the logos, the voting rules, and all the other things.

I think the "designers" had enough time this time (approx. 2 months, no
?).  
We should also care about not letting the things fade by disinterest,
and the creative process must remain as spontaneous as possible (tough
I know by experience how hard it is to get a good balance between
spontaneity
and maturity)

Cheers,
Fabien.

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"Ken" wrote:
> Rune wrote:
>
> > More people.
> > I've heard about some French POV-Ray newsgroups, and I guess there's
also
> > some Japanese, and maybe others. I think we should get the people in all
> > those newsgroups involved, both in creating logos, and in the voting.
This
> > will require a lot of organization, but I hope it could be arranged.
>
> Actually the announcement of this contest has been discussed in the
> French groups and they have been participating in both the design
> and voting phases of the contest.

Well, that is nice!

Are there other POV-Ray dedicated newsgroups?

Greetings,

Rune

---
Updated March 15: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!

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"Fabien Mosen" wrote:
> Rune wrote:
>
> > In case a whole new competition is made, the
> > results of this competition are practically
> > useless. We can, however, use it to see which
> > logos have potential.
>
> It's certainly not useless.  There's plenty to
> learn from that experience.
> Let's get this voting process finished (maybe
> shorten the deadline, 1 month is very long for
> just 16 logos), and use the results as a basis
> to understand WHY the "awarded" logos are good.

I guess so.

> I'm pretty sure that almost every "designer"
> feels that there is a very wide room for
> improvement, and that even the "winner" will be
> dissatisfied (artistically speaking) if his
> (are there "her's" ? I don't think so) logo was
> used "as is".

I don't know about that, but never mind, let's not get into details here.

> > Better voting rules.
> > Better discussion about the voting rules. We
> > could for example include a voting option
> > that will enable us to see how many people
> > who support the logos. This discussion must
> > be done *before* the voting begins.
>
> Maybe giving points to each logo instead of
> ranking would help to discernate if a logo is
> "best liked" or "less disliked", or even if
> the whole set of logos is mature enough to
> deserve being officially used. Maybe there
> could be points by criterias (artistic,
> concept, tech, errr... sorry :). Of course,
> it would make the voting process a little more
> complicated.

I don't think giving points serves any purpose in this competition. I
personally think that the current rules were fine, if just people could
specify which logos they don't think is good enough at all.

> > More time.
> > I would think a deadline for the submission
> > of logos could be the end of year 2000. This
> > would give plenty (but not too much) of time
> > to discuss the logo requirements, the logos,
> > the voting rules, and all the other things.
>
> I think the "designers" had enough time this
> time (approx. 2 months, no ?).
> We should also care about not letting the
> things fade by disinterest, and the creative
> process must remain as spontaneous as possible
> (tough I know by experience how hard it is to
> get a good balance between spontaneity and
> maturity)

The 8 month until 2001 is not only for creating the logos. It is for
discussing/making the logo rules and definitions, discussing/making the
voting rules, making the logos, discussing and improving the logos. After
the deadline no rules nor any logos can be changed, so everything has to be
ready and set for the final voting, which will be definite.

If I know the community here right, all those discussions will take a lot of
time. It will take time for people to reply, it will take time for people to
make their points clear, and it will indeed take time for people to agree on
different subjects, if that possible at all.

And even then, I think it is better with too much time, than with too
little.

But anyway, it was not the intention that we went into details here. What I
really want to know is:

Is this competition good enough, or should we make a new one? How many are
for a new competition, and how many are against?

Greetings,

Rune

---
Updated March 15: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!

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Rune wrote:

> Are there other POV-Ray dedicated newsgroups?

None that I have been made aware of. I have asked before, both here and
on c.g.r.r., if any other foreign language groups existed but have never
recieved a reply. Doing a search for POV-Ray on USENET returns no results
so if there are others they would be on private news servers somewhere
else.

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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>Will the current competition do, or should we make a completely new one?

I don't think it would be a bad idea to start a new one. Since people don't
seem to understand/like the current one a new one seems in order.

>In case a whole new competition is made, the results of this competition
are
>practically useless. We can, however, use it to see which logos have
>potential.

As far as I can tell, the front-runners are 4, 6, and 11 (joy!).

>Better logo definitions.
> <blah> <blah> <blah>

I think that has been explained pretty clearly. All you need is to collect
all that have been discussed into one document that summarizes this in a
clear, concise fashion. You should explain the difference between logos and
their presentations. IMHO, I think that all the logos submitted should be
black and white. Color is only part of the presentation. Don't you think?

>Better voting rules.
>Better discussion about the voting rules.
> <blah> <blah> <blah>

Sounds like a good idea.

>Logo improvement.
> <blah> <blah> <blah>

Capital idea. I think I already suggested this (or at least thought about
it). Here's my idea: The authors could submit their logos as they originally
conceive them. Then voting should occur. Sound familiar? Well, here's the
twist. Next to each priority, one should briefly (one sentence) explain what
one liked or disliked about it. The authors would be given a certain time to
improve on their logos and a new vote should occur. That's the part where we
proceed with your original plan.

>More people.
> <blah> <blah> <blah>

Yeess! I concur! <japanese>Kite, Niponjin, kite!!!</japanese>

>More time.
> <blah> <blah> <blah>

I think that's a bit too much time. Two months should be enough. But, first
we need to spread the word to all the other POV newsgroups around the globe,
with a translation of the rules for the people there.

>More organization.
> <blah> <blah> <blah>

Yes. I concur.

>I will need people to help me!

I don't have any time right now, but I'll see what I can do next month. :)

>Official support.
> <blah> <blah> <blah>

I'm sure they wouldn't mind. They love good and helpful support and feedback
from the users. (Right?) Hail the POV-Team!

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"Rune" <run### [at] inamecom> wrote in message news:3900dbae@news.povray.org...
|
| But anyway, it was not the intention that we went into details here. What I
| really want to know is:
|
| Is this competition good enough, or should we make a new one? How many are
| for a new competition, and how many are against?

If the contest is redone my vote can be bought for the right price  ;-)
In all seriousness though, it seems many more people have become
aware of this since the beginning and perhaps, just perhaps, others
would now like to try to create a POV logo too.  Maybe this first round
could be thought of as a trial run and a bit of advertisement.
I'm not saying this and hoping for a chance at it myself, I might not ever
come up with anything.  Just looks as though more people have taken notice
and that's what was originally needed, lots of contestants.
I keep referring to it as a "contest" but I'm not qualified to say.

Bob

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"Rune" <run### [at] inamecom> wrote :
>
> How many are
> for a new competition, and how many are against?
>

    [X] Yes
    [ ] No

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"Bob Hughes" wrote:
> It seems many more people have become aware of
> this since the beginning and perhaps, just
> perhaps, others would now like to try to create
> a POV logo too.  Maybe this first round could
> be thought of as a trial run and a bit of
> advertisement.

I agree, but I would like to know how many others agree too.

> I keep referring to it as a "contest" but I'm not qualified to say.

What excactly is the difference between a contest and a competition?
I have never really learned it. Contest may be a more correct word.

Greetings,

Rune

---
Updated March 15: http://rsj.mobilixnet.dk
Containing 3D images, stereograms, tutorials,
The POV Desktop Theme, 350+ raytracing jokes,
miscellaneous other things, and a lot of fun!

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