On 2016-11-15 3:53 PM, [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
> ingo <ing### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>> in news:582b029d$1@news.povray.org clipka wrote:
>>
>>>>> The problem with Blender is that it is so big [...]
>>
>>> Maybe someone should get involved with Blender UI development, and
>>> implement an alternative UI for noobs, exposing only a subset of the
>>> features, [...]
>>
>> one "GUI" for one task, blend out everything else. Push all GUI elements
>> to a second screen.
>>
>> Ingo
>>
>>
>
> The blender UI, rumor had it long ago, was intentionally (or
> retro-intentionally) obfuscated in order to fund the app by selling manuals
> and such. At least that was the rumor years ago, and after using it
> (well...trying to) I could totally buy that conjecture. ;D
>
> Or it could have been a consequence of design-by-committee. :p
>
> I have not attempted to do so in years though, and based on the
> conversation here perhaps it is time I did.
>
> My ideal UI would be like TrueSpace 3 + Bryce + Houdini.
> Hell, Houdini is frankly in my opinion perfect. I just cannot afford it,
> though there is a free version and a cheap version I like to own full
> versions, so Lightwave haha!
>
> Ian
>

Funny you should mention TrueSpace. I met up with the author and founder 
of the company - Roman Ormandy.  We discussed having me write a new 
rendering back-end for TrueSpace to allow for raytracing and other 
things.  We never started on the project but it was great meeting him. 
We both admired each others' work.

David Buck

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Am 15.11.2016 um 21:53 schrieb [GDS|Entropy]:

> The blender UI, rumor had it long ago, was intentionally (or
> retro-intentionally) obfuscated in order to fund the app by selling manuals
> and such. At least that was the rumor years ago, and after using it
> (well...trying to) I could totally buy that conjecture. ;D
> 
> Or it could have been a consequence of design-by-committee. :p

The software started out as an in-house tool. For me that's explanation
enough for a crappy UI.

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ingo <ing### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> in
> news:135### [at] newspo
> vray.org [GDS|Entropy] wrote: 
> 
>> The blender UI, rumor had it long ago, was intentionally (or
>> retro-intentionally) obfuscated in order to fund the app by selling
>> manuals and such. 
> 
> 't was an inhouse tool before released to the public and at that time it 
> already had this "informal" GUI.
> 
> I liked sPatch but it needed way to many mouse clicks, I still use Silo 
> every now and then and loved 3D Studio R4. There also used to be an 
> excellent blob moddeler with blob-splines and stuff and Leveller for 
> terrains.
> 
> Ingo
> 

I actually still have a copy of Leveller and sPatch kicking around in one
of my raid stacks somewhere still. I keep *everything*. ;)

Ian

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David Buck <dav### [at] simberoncom> wrote:
> Funny you should mention TrueSpace. I met up with the author and founder 
> of the company - Roman Ormandy.  We discussed having me write a new 
> rendering back-end for TrueSpace to allow for raytracing and other 
> things.  We never started on the project but it was great meeting him. 
> We both admired each others' work.
> 
> David Buck
> 

Oh man that would have been awesome! TrueSpace with Pov Power...

This is yet another reason for me to never forgive Microsoft for what they
did to TrueSpace, which was an act of digital terrorism IMO. Like DAZ
essentially killing Carrara and Bryce. I'd rather they open source it than
let the product die.

Ian

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> Exactly; the same phenomena of "brain drain" is occurring in all fields.
> The reliance upon tools fundamentally weakens our ability to operate
> without them. There is nothing wrong with tools in and of themselves, and
> through their use we can perform metatasks quite quickly, but like Opioids
> used incorrectly, it can quickly grow into a dependence...and that is
> certainly not good.
>
> I look at the elementary school mathematics books from my grandfather, and
> compare those to what is being used here (USA) now and the difference is
> utterly stark.
>
> Whereas long ago Algebra was truly a fundamental part of all early
> education, now it is relegated to GT/AG classes and for the rest it is
> delayed until much later in the curricula of standard public education.
> This is sick. Why break the minds of an entire people?
>
> That among the whole flood of propaganda is why my son goes to a private
> school, does not watch TV, have a phone, use the internet, play video games
> or any other such nonsense.
>
> He does own a laptop, and I am teaching him how to program and construct
> various forms of robotic and autonomous systems, as he is very interested
> in that subject along with Chemistry. He is six, and I am quite sure that
> were he exposed to mass media he would not manifest nearly such affinity
> for science and technology.
>
> Now I'm really, *really* OT.
> Oh well. Free-for-all! Lol
>
> Ian

For what I try to do, 3D modelling, while it can construct models with perfect
exactness, has a huge limitation in that it relies so much on just the geometric
properties and mathematical relations of things not necessarily how they look.
Designs created by computer tend to come out predictably the same. Like the way
automobiles now look much alike. I love math and I love geometric shapes but as
a graphic artist concerned with pictures what POV makes possible is not just the
re-creation of solid objects but the ability to play with light itself and how
we really experience the visual world. Like in painting. As a true raytracer POV
is unlike almost any other digital canvas, though in render time we pay a high
price. Sorry about OT again but this has become a really great thread for those
who hope that POV stays alive.

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in news:web.582bae685604f23f89fafb20@news.povray.org Stephen Klebs
wrote: 

> [...] the ability to play with
> light itself and how we really experience the visual world. 

A GUI would probably have stopped at rgb 1, we can do rgb 10, or -3 we can 
reuse the radiosity data from one scene in an other. You can even aim at 
realism,

Ingo

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On 16-11-2016 1:14, [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
> ingo <ing### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>> in
>> news:135### [at] newspo
>> vray.org [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
>>
>>> The blender UI, rumor had it long ago, was intentionally (or
>>> retro-intentionally) obfuscated in order to fund the app by selling
>>> manuals and such.
>>
>> 't was an inhouse tool before released to the public and at that time it
>> already had this "informal" GUI.
>>
>> I liked sPatch but it needed way to many mouse clicks, I still use Silo
>> every now and then and loved 3D Studio R4. There also used to be an
>> excellent blob moddeler with blob-splines and stuff and Leveller for
>> terrains.
>>
>> Ingo
>>
>
> I actually still have a copy of Leveller and sPatch kicking around in one
> of my raid stacks somewhere still. I keep *everything*. ;)
>

Why do I recognise that? :-) I have those too somewhere, but instead use 
GeoControl and Silo respectively. Wings3D once in a while. All with 
different GUI's but fairly easy to learn/remember.


-- 
Thomas

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On 15-11-2016 14:29, Stephen wrote:
> On 11/15/2016 9:36 AM, Mr wrote:
>> Stephen <mca### [at] aolcom> wrote:
>>> On 11/15/2016 8:01 AM, Thomas de Groot wrote:
>>>> Yes, I know, but I understand that this is embedded in Blender, isn't
>>>> it? So, is that not a problem for those not familiar with Blender?
>>>
>>>
>>> I would love to see what LanuHum's translator makes of that last
>>> sentence. ;-)
>>>
>>> The problem with Blender is that it is so big and it takes a lot of time
>>> to get to the point where you don't have to think about how to do
>>> things. But I can see that it will be worthwhile.
>>>
>>> And the Z-axis is up. :(
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>       Stephen
>>
>> I was thinking about the coordinates system this morning in the bus!
>> Telling
>> myself it would come up in the discussion:
>> Our exporter applies transformation matrices to Blender objects and
>> switches them to pov coordinates this makes it comfortable for the
>> user who
>> dosen't even have to think about xyz for simple scene drafting
>> visually and can
>> keep thinking in pov coordinates system once he exported the scene and
>> tweaks it
>> in a text file if necessary,
>>
>
> I have a question or two and a blend scene that does not export. How do
> you want them reported?
>
> If no one objects The Moray groups could be used. They were for Bishop3d.
>

That would be an excellent re-use. It would also stimulate the focus on 
Blender and its POV-Ray links and - who knows? - I shall possibly try to 
learn to use it seriously at last. ;-)

-- 
Thomas

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On 15-11-2016 21:10, [GDS|Entropy] wrote:
[snip]
> Since 2013 (for sci-fi) I have read the entire Foundation series, all of
> the Dune books, The Wheel of Time, The Dark Tower series ...nearly all of
> the works by the following (some specific listed series only): David Brin,
> Stephen Baxter, Terry Pratchett, Greg Egan, Peter f Hamilton, Ian Douglas,
> Arthur C Clarke, Gregory Benford, Alastair Reynolds, Vernor Vinge, Larry
> Niven, Robert Charles Wilson, Kevin J Anderson (specifically the Saga of
> the Seven Suns and its extension), Michael McCloskey, Jerry Pournelle, Iain
> M Banks, Dan Simmons, H.P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, Willian Hope
> Hodgeson....I have a list of others I am burning through currently but I am
> not done with their works, so they don't go on this list yet.
>
[snip]

A kindred soul!

I have not read all of those but a fair amount of them over the years. 
Iain M. Banks has been a recent discovery of mine. A pity he passed 
away; I would have enjoyed more of his Culture novels.

-- 
Thomas

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[GDS|Entropy] <gdsHYPHENentropyAThotmaolDOTcom> wrote:
>
> My ideal UI would be like TrueSpace 3 + Bryce + Houdini.
> Hell, Houdini is frankly in my opinion perfect. I just cannot afford it,
> though there is a free version and a cheap version I like to own full
> versions, so Lightwave haha!
>
> Ian

You can not afford to Houdini?
I can afford to Houdini.
I do not like Windows. The interface Windows is much scarier than Blender GUI.
Some people can not afford the Windows!
Povray - cross-platform application and Blender - cross-platform application.
They can use a child from a poor family, if it finds a landfill discarded
computer. He installs Linux, Blender, Povray and may find its purpose
Do not forget about it!
Talented people are not all rich.

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