Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
> No, that does not turn of virtual memory, it turns of the page file. The 
> page file is part of the a common virtual memory implementation, but the 
> most important part is that you have a non-linear physical memory (hence 
> the "virtual" in "virtual memory").

That would be the "virtual addressing" of which I was speaking. "Virtual 
addresses" don't match real addresses. "Virtual memory" doesn't match real 
memory.

 > In effect, disabling the page file
> simply means the system cannot move writable memory out to disk. The 
> system still can move all read-only memory to disk, such as code and 
> static data (i.e. resources) loaded from application and library files.

This is true. And of course the application still has the ability to map 
files and use page faults to read and write files. But if you're trying to 
limit how much memory a program allocates in order to reduce page thrashing, 
turning off the paging file will be sufficient. If you don't have enough 
memory to hold POV-Ray's executable code entirely in RAM, chances are you 
need more RAM anyway.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
   I get "focus follows gaze"?

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On 14.02.10 22:36, Darren New wrote:
> Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
>> No, that does not turn of virtual memory, it turns of the page file.
>> The page file is part of the a common virtual memory implementation,
>> but the most important part is that you have a non-linear physical
>> memory (hence the "virtual" in "virtual memory").
>
> That would be the "virtual addressing" of which I was speaking. "Virtual
> addresses" don't match real addresses. "Virtual memory" doesn't match
> real memory.

You have your terminology confused. Read up on the subject in a textbook or 
Wikipedia or Google it. All not my problem, so please stop trying to make 
your mistake my problem.

	Thorsten, POV-Team

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On 14.02.10 22:21, GraemeM wrote:
>> Turning virtual memory off in Windows is trivial. I don't think you can turn
>> off virtual addressing, but that shouldn't have an impact on this problem.
>
> I have experienced this with XP (32bit) and 4Gb ram.  The PC ran well for around
> 4 days and then started crashing on start up.  the only way to get it to boot
> successfully was to re-enable the virtual memory.

If you turn off your page file, the system has less memory it can assign to 
applications. Windows does not handle running out of memory very well. And 
again, you turn writing to the page file, you do not turn off virtual memory.

	Thorsten

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Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
> Read up on the subject in a textbook or Wikipedia or Google it. 

I wasn't going to argue it, but you keep bringing it up. Different people 
call it different things. Wikipedia points "virtual addressing" and "virtual 
memory" at the same page, and it's quite possible to have either one without 
the other, so they've simplified.  I don't really care what you call it. 
And yes, I've read many a textbook on the topic, so I'll take the textbooks 
I read while getting a Ph.D., written by people who actually design modern 
CPUs, as more authoritative than Wikipedia, but thanks for playing.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
   I get "focus follows gaze"?

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On 2/14/2010 1:58 PM, Ken Willmott wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
>>> Given that turning virtual memory off is impossible in Windows that
>>> seems like an odd suggestion...
>>
>> Turning virtual memory off in Windows is trivial. I don't think you can turn
>> off virtual addressing, but that shouldn't have an impact on this problem.
>>
>> Control panel->System->Advanced->Performance->Advanced->No page file
>>
>> Admittedly, it's behind two "advanced" tabs, but the help tells you how to
>> get there too if you put "virtual memory" into the search bar of the control
>> panel.
>>
>> --
>> Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
>>     Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
>>     I get "focus follows gaze"?
>
> Interesting, I had no idea this was possible. Actually though, I believe it is
> probably better to leave it alone. It's probably there to allow better real-time
> performance for time critical apps.
>
As a rule, usually is. Windows will try to page, even if it *has* 
sufficient system memory available, due to how it loads/unloads things 
it doesn't need immediately. And, you run into major issues "if" you 
don't have it and hit the memory limit.

About the only thing its good for, if you have the system memory, is to 
wipe it with a reboot (after turning it off), run a *detailed* 
defragger, which consolidates files properly (most won't), then put it 
back, and restart. This causes the original to be removed, and a new one 
to be created, contiguously, at the end of the high end of the 
partition. I doubt 7 is any better than any other version has ever been 
at this, so **eventually** the page file gets so screwed up that 
everything runs like crap. Killing the file, consolidating everything, 
then restoring it is the most effective solution, but if you have enough 
free space, there are 1-2 things that *specifically* defrag the page 
file, during startup, and before its in use.

Otherwise, you could turn it off in Windows, but, as I said, Windows 
doesn't like you doing it **at all**.

-- 
void main () {

     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> so **eventually** the page file gets so screwed up that 
> everything runs like crap. 

Easiest is to simply create the file at a fixed size, and don't let it grow 
or shrink. It'll be created contiguously if you have one spot big enough for 
it. It's when you say "Let Windows manage it" that it tries to grow and 
shrink it on demand. If you have 30G free space, allocating a 5G contiguous 
swap file shouldn't be problematic.

> Otherwise, you could turn it off in Windows, but, as I said, Windows 
> doesn't like you doing it **at all**.

I don't know. I've run for years without a page file and never had a 
complaint, on both Win32 and Win64. As long as you have enough memory, it's 
really not a problem.

This really isn't the forum for this discussion, tho.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
   I get "focus follows gaze"?

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On 15.02.10 02:00, Darren New wrote:
> Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
>> Read up on the subject in a textbook or Wikipedia or Google it.
>
> I wasn't going to argue it, but you keep bringing it up. Different
> people call it different things. Wikipedia points "virtual addressing"
> and "virtual memory" at the same page, and it's quite possible to have
> either one without the other, so they've simplified. I don't really care
> what you call it. And yes, I've read many a textbook on the topic, so
> I'll take the textbooks I read while getting a Ph.D., written by people
> who actually design modern CPUs, as more authoritative than Wikipedia,
> but thanks for playing.

*plonk*

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On 14.02.10 22:03, Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
> On 14.02.10 22:00, Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
>> On 14.02.10 21:44, Darren New wrote:
>>> Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
>>>> Given that turning virtual memory off is impossible in Windows that
>>>> seems like an odd suggestion...
>>>
>>> Turning virtual memory off in Windows is trivial. I don't think you can
>>> turn off virtual addressing, but that shouldn't have an impact on this
>>> problem.
>> >
>>> Control panel->System->Advanced->Performance->Advanced->No page file
>>
>> No, that does not turn of virtual memory, it turns of the page file. The
>> page file is part of the a common virtual memory implementation, but the
>> most important part is that you have a non-linear physical memory (hence
>> the "virtual" in "virtual memory"). In effect, disabling the page file
>> simply means the system cannot move writable memory out to disk. The
>> system still can move all read-only memory to disk, such as code and
>> static data (i.e. resources) loaded from application and library files.
>
> What is even more surprising is that it is even explained on Wikipedia
> fairly well, so before this starts some argument I will post the link:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_memory>

And for all those who do not like Wikipedia, here the same news from 
Microsoft: <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms810616.aspx>

	Thorsten

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> On 2/14/2010 1:58 PM, Ken Willmott wrote:
>> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>>> Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
>>>> Given that turning virtual memory off is impossible in Windows that
>>>> seems like an odd suggestion...
>>>
>>> Turning virtual memory off in Windows is trivial. I don't think you
>>> can turn
>>> off virtual addressing, but that shouldn't have an impact on this
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Control panel->System->Advanced->Performance->Advanced->No page file
>>>
>>> Admittedly, it's behind two "advanced" tabs, but the help tells you
>>> how to
>>> get there too if you put "virtual memory" into the search bar of the
>>> control
>>> panel.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
>>> Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
>>> I get "focus follows gaze"?
>>
>> Interesting, I had no idea this was possible. Actually though, I
>> believe it is
>> probably better to leave it alone. It's probably there to allow better
>> real-time
>> performance for time critical apps.
>>
> As a rule, usually is. Windows will try to page, even if it *has*
> sufficient system memory available, due to how it loads/unloads things
> it doesn't need immediately. And, you run into major issues "if" you
> don't have it and hit the memory limit.
>
> About the only thing its good for, if you have the system memory, is to
> wipe it with a reboot (after turning it off), run a *detailed*
> defragger, which consolidates files properly (most won't), then put it
> back, and restart. This causes the original to be removed, and a new one
> to be created, contiguously, at the end of the high end of the
> partition. I doubt 7 is any better than any other version has ever been
> at this, so **eventually** the page file gets so screwed up that
> everything runs like crap. Killing the file, consolidating everything,
> then restoring it is the most effective solution, but if you have enough
> free space, there are 1-2 things that *specifically* defrag the page
> file, during startup, and before its in use.
>
> Otherwise, you could turn it off in Windows, but, as I said, Windows
> doesn't like you doing it **at all**.
>

Never let windows complete control over the page file, and don't leave 
it on the same partition as windows.
One of the best way to manage it is to create a dedicated partition with 
nothing else on it, then to hide that partition.

If you have more than one hard drives, create a drive leter less 
partition as the first partition on each drives and make those contain 
your page file. It should be the first thing done on any new system.



Alain

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On 2/15/2010 8:08 AM, Alain wrote:

>> On 2/14/2010 1:58 PM, Ken Willmott wrote:
>>> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>>>> Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
>>>>> Given that turning virtual memory off is impossible in Windows that
>>>>> seems like an odd suggestion...
>>>>
>>>> Turning virtual memory off in Windows is trivial. I don't think you
>>>> can turn
>>>> off virtual addressing, but that shouldn't have an impact on this
>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>> Control panel->System->Advanced->Performance->Advanced->No page file
>>>>
>>>> Admittedly, it's behind two "advanced" tabs, but the help tells you
>>>> how to
>>>> get there too if you put "virtual memory" into the search bar of the
>>>> control
>>>> panel.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
>>>> Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
>>>> I get "focus follows gaze"?
>>>
>>> Interesting, I had no idea this was possible. Actually though, I
>>> believe it is
>>> probably better to leave it alone. It's probably there to allow better
>>> real-time
>>> performance for time critical apps.
>>>
>> As a rule, usually is. Windows will try to page, even if it *has*
>> sufficient system memory available, due to how it loads/unloads things
>> it doesn't need immediately. And, you run into major issues "if" you
>> don't have it and hit the memory limit.
>>
>> About the only thing its good for, if you have the system memory, is to
>> wipe it with a reboot (after turning it off), run a *detailed*
>> defragger, which consolidates files properly (most won't), then put it
>> back, and restart. This causes the original to be removed, and a new one
>> to be created, contiguously, at the end of the high end of the
>> partition. I doubt 7 is any better than any other version has ever been
>> at this, so **eventually** the page file gets so screwed up that
>> everything runs like crap. Killing the file, consolidating everything,
>> then restoring it is the most effective solution, but if you have enough
>> free space, there are 1-2 things that *specifically* defrag the page
>> file, during startup, and before its in use.
>>
>> Otherwise, you could turn it off in Windows, but, as I said, Windows
>> doesn't like you doing it **at all**.
>>
>
> Never let windows complete control over the page file, and don't leave
> it on the same partition as windows.
> One of the best way to manage it is to create a dedicated partition with
> nothing else on it, then to hide that partition.
>
> If you have more than one hard drives, create a drive leter less
> partition as the first partition on each drives and make those contain
> your page file. It should be the first thing done on any new system.
>
>
>
> Alain
Hmm. Interesting idea, actually. I fowled up and made a mini-partition 
on mine, thinking it was like 98, and some stuff would be easy to shift 
some place else. If I ever manage to find something that can nuke the 
Fedora partitions I never use, I can make one for it out of that (its a 
virtual partition, so half the damn tools a) don't recognize it or b) 
know how to delete it...)

-- 
void main () {

     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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