As a maxim, this is perfectly appropriate cynicism for something like Facebook.
It's probably even appropriate for things like Windows, where you might pay cash
and your frustrations with the product merely demonstrate that you yourself are
the product, not the customer.

Even on the worst day, with your most cynical hat on, this doesn't apply to
povray,  which is very cool.

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On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 16:53:30 -0400, gregjohn wrote:

> As a maxim, this is perfectly appropriate cynicism for something like
> Facebook. It's probably even appropriate for things like Windows, where
> you might pay cash and your frustrations with the product merely
> demonstrate that you yourself are the product, not the customer.
> 
> Even on the worst day, with your most cynical hat on, this doesn't apply
> to povray,  which is very cool.

That also doesn't particularly apply to open source software as well. :)

Jim

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On 02/10/2011 09:53 PM, gregjohn wrote:
> As a maxim, this is perfectly appropriate cynicism for something like Facebook.
> It's probably even appropriate for things like Windows, where you might pay cash
> and your frustrations with the product merely demonstrate that you yourself are
> the product, not the customer.
>
> Even on the worst day, with your most cynical hat on, this doesn't apply to
> povray,  which is very cool.

A better explanation might be "if it costs somebody money but you didn't 
pay for it, you're being sold".

If a bunch of programmers want to write stuff in their free time, that 
doesn't cost anybody any money. So if you get the results for free, 
you're not necessarily being sold.

If you want to run Facebook, that costs a crapload of money. Hosting a 
seriously high-traffic site like that isn't cheap. All that money has to 
come from somewhere.

My blog, on the other hand, costs me almost nothing to run. So the money 
doesn't really have to "come from" somewhere - i.e., I'm not selling my 
users.



Incidentally, people talk about how FB has all this valuable user data 
and how they're using it to do ultra-targeted advertising. ARE YOU 
KIDDING ME? Have you *seen* their adverts? What are they aiming with? A 
blunderbuss?! Because the targeting is just laughably poor. For example, 
constantly spamming me with ads for dating websites, even after I 
changed my profile to indicate that I'm no longer single.

Sometimes, you do something like change your status to mention 
Marmite(tm), and an advert for Marmite(tm) appears. Sometimes you say 
something like "man, I'm really looking forward to the weekend", and get 
an advert for Hellman's mayonnaise. And sometimes, you say something 
like "hey Helen, that was some great dancing yesterday" and get adverts 
for Black & Decker power tools. I mean, seriously, WTF? This is not 
"targeted advertising", this is "randomly generated spam".

Good thing it's so easy to ignore...

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 16:53:30 -0400, gregjohn wrote:
>
> > As a maxim, this is perfectly appropriate cynicism for something like
> > Facebook. It's probably even appropriate for things like Windows, where
> > you might pay cash and your frustrations with the product merely
> > demonstrate that you yourself are the product, not the customer.
> >
> > Even on the worst day, with your most cynical hat on, this doesn't apply
> > to povray,  which is very cool.
>
> That also doesn't particularly apply to open source software as well. :)
>
> Jim


I'm still trying to figure out what happened to VLC.  I have had very reasonable
versions running for ~years on a few boxes, including WinXP.  Recently tried to
get one for my wife's laptop, and they "Recommended" installation of Yahoo!
toolbar.

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On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:58:00 -0400, gregjohn wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 16:53:30 -0400, gregjohn wrote:
>>
>> > As a maxim, this is perfectly appropriate cynicism for something like
>> > Facebook. It's probably even appropriate for things like Windows,
>> > where you might pay cash and your frustrations with the product
>> > merely demonstrate that you yourself are the product, not the
>> > customer.
>> >
>> > Even on the worst day, with your most cynical hat on, this doesn't
>> > apply to povray,  which is very cool.
>>
>> That also doesn't particularly apply to open source software as well.
>> :)
>>
>> Jim
> 
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out what happened to VLC.  I have had very
> reasonable versions running for ~years on a few boxes, including WinXP. 
> Recently tried to get one for my wife's laptop, and they "Recommended"
> installation of Yahoo! toolbar.

That's one of my biggest pet peeves.  In my old job, I would help sites 
set up something that required Java, but explicitly needed an otherwise 
barebones browser (ie, no addons).  Sun used to automatically install the 
Google toolbar, so I'd have to install Java and then uninstall the 
toolbar.

They changed that behaviour, but I hate when installers install crap I 
don't want and didn't ask for.

Jim

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On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 08:59:40 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> A better explanation might be "if it costs somebody money but you didn't
> pay for it, you're being sold".

That's the best way to look at it I've seen. :)

Jim

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>> I'm still trying to figure out what happened to VLC.  I have had very
>> reasonable versions running for ~years on a few boxes, including WinXP.
>> Recently tried to get one for my wife's laptop, and they "Recommended"
>> installation of Yahoo! toolbar.
>
> That's one of my biggest pet peeves.  In my old job, I would help sites
> set up something that required Java, but explicitly needed an otherwise
> barebones browser (ie, no addons).  Sun used to automatically install the
> Google toolbar, so I'd have to install Java and then uninstall the
> toolbar.
>
> They changed that behaviour, but I hate when installers install crap I
> don't want and didn't ask for.

Usually with these installers, there's a checkbox you can uncheck to 
tell it not to install the other crap you don't want. Usually. If you 
remember to turn it off. (And don't do a silent install or something.)

Unfortunately, this kind of nonsense seems to be a growing trend.

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On Tue, 04 Oct 2011 09:05:15 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> I'm still trying to figure out what happened to VLC.  I have had very
>>> reasonable versions running for ~years on a few boxes, including
>>> WinXP. Recently tried to get one for my wife's laptop, and they
>>> "Recommended" installation of Yahoo! toolbar.
>>
>> That's one of my biggest pet peeves.  In my old job, I would help sites
>> set up something that required Java, but explicitly needed an otherwise
>> barebones browser (ie, no addons).  Sun used to automatically install
>> the Google toolbar, so I'd have to install Java and then uninstall the
>> toolbar.
>>
>> They changed that behaviour, but I hate when installers install crap I
>> don't want and didn't ask for.
> 
> Usually with these installers, there's a checkbox you can uncheck to
> tell it not to install the other crap you don't want. Usually. If you
> remember to turn it off. (And don't do a silent install or something.)

Yes, there is, and what I was specifically talking about was early 
versions of Java that didn't have the option to not install the Google 
toolbar.

> Unfortunately, this kind of nonsense seems to be a growing trend.

That it does.

Jim

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>> Usually with these installers, there's a checkbox you can uncheck to
>> tell it not to install the other crap you don't want. Usually. If you
>> remember to turn it off. (And don't do a silent install or something.)
>
> Yes, there is, and what I was specifically talking about was early
> versions of Java that didn't have the option to not install the Google
> toolbar.

I'm still trying to figure out why having a Google toolbar, or a Wolfram 
Alpha toolbar, or any other kind of toolbar is actually *useful* for 
anything...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 4-10-2011 20:57, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Usually with these installers, there's a checkbox you can uncheck to
>>> tell it not to install the other crap you don't want. Usually. If you
>>> remember to turn it off. (And don't do a silent install or something.)
>>
>> Yes, there is, and what I was specifically talking about was early
>> versions of Java that didn't have the option to not install the Google
>> toolbar.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out why having a Google toolbar, or a Wolfram
> Alpha toolbar, or any other kind of toolbar is actually *useful* for
> anything...


http://www.benchsolution.com/product/magnetic-tool-bar-13-wide-2-adapter-hooks/49/

-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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