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On 1/26/2016 3:16 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:38:43 +0100, clipka wrote:
>
>>> True, then again, you could always try something like Gaelic.
>>
>> Well... I /vaguely/ recall having mention Irish ;)
>
> Which is not quite the same as Gaelic - or rather, Gaelic languages (6
> living langauges, a few mixed, and a few nearly dead languages - I know
> someone who's one of about 5 people in the world who speak one particular
> dialect - in Scotland).
>
About 20 years ago I was on a rig where the OIM had been to the funeral
of the last Doric, of a certain type, speaker.
> Welsh actually is one of those languages, as is Irish. Breton, Scotish
> Gaelic, Cornish, and Manx are the other living languages.
>
Irish, are you talking about Irish Gaelic?
I would call Irish Gaelic and Scotish Gaelic, gaelic but would pronounce
then differently.
> I can't tell you how many people mispronounce my cats' names - which are
> Manx Gaelic (and actually, relatively simple names to pronounce).
>
That supriseses me. :-P
>>> Or for a challenge, try a non-Romanized language; Russian, Polish,
>>> Hungarian (is quite interesting), Japanese, Chinese, or another similar
>>> language. :)
>>
>> I think aside from Chinese (for rather obvious reasons) neither of them
>> can cope with Irish when it comes to leaving the reader puzzled as to
>> how an unfamiliar written word is spoken or vice versa, even when said
>> reader is well-versed in the script(*) used.
>
> Arguably, English itself has some oddities that make pronunciation
> difficult for non-native speakers to use.
>
Ah! remember who you are speaking to.
Being bi-lingual, adds complications.
> For example, the made-up word 'ghoti' is often used to describe the
> idiosyncrasies of English pronunciation. (The actual pronunciation of
> that made-up word is "fish" - gh from 'tough', o from 'women', ti from
> 'nation').
>
A case of the parts adding to more than the sun of the whoke. :)
>> That's because Irish is exceptionally unconventional in how it uses the
>> latin script to render the language's phonemes.
>
> Another that strikes me as in a similar class is Catalan - though a fair
> amount of the 'misunderstanding' of Catalan vs. European Spanish is less
> a lack of understanding based on mispronunciation and more what some
> might just term as 'dickishness'. :)
>
Watch it ot ETA will come to get you. :P
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 1/26/2016 5:51 PM, Stephen wrote:
> That supriseses me. :-P
surprises
Bugrit!
Anyone know how to get Tbird to spell check UK English. The last upgrade
has messed up my spellchecker. Grrr!
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 1/26/2016 5:55 PM, Stephen wrote:
> On 1/26/2016 5:51 PM, Stephen wrote:
>> That supriseses me. :-P
>
> surprises
>
> Bugrit!
> Anyone know how to get Tbird to spell check UK English. The last upgrade
> has messed up my spellchecker. Grrr!
>
See ::(
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:51:55 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> On 1/26/2016 3:16 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:38:43 +0100, clipka wrote:
>>
>>>> True, then again, you could always try something like Gaelic.
>>>
>>> Well... I /vaguely/ recall having mention Irish ;)
>>
>> Which is not quite the same as Gaelic - or rather, Gaelic languages (6
>> living langauges, a few mixed, and a few nearly dead languages - I know
>> someone who's one of about 5 people in the world who speak one
>> particular dialect - in Scotland).
>>
>>
> About 20 years ago I was on a rig where the OIM had been to the funeral
> of the last Doric, of a certain type, speaker.
I need to find out from Alistair what it is that he speaks. He said
there's one other person in the town he lives in who speaks it.
Fortunately, they get along. :)
>> Welsh actually is one of those languages, as is Irish. Breton, Scotish
>> Gaelic, Cornish, and Manx are the other living languages.
>>
>>
> Irish, are you talking about Irish Gaelic?
Yes, sorry, I should have been clear on that.
>> I can't tell you how many people mispronounce my cats' names - which
>> are Manx Gaelic (and actually, relatively simple names to pronounce).
>>
>>
> That supriseses me. :-P
Which part of it?
That they're simple names to pronounce?
>>>> Or for a challenge, try a non-Romanized language; Russian, Polish,
>>>> Hungarian (is quite interesting), Japanese, Chinese, or another
>>>> similar language. :)
>>>
>>> I think aside from Chinese (for rather obvious reasons) neither of
>>> them can cope with Irish when it comes to leaving the reader puzzled
>>> as to how an unfamiliar written word is spoken or vice versa, even
>>> when said reader is well-versed in the script(*) used.
>>
>> Arguably, English itself has some oddities that make pronunciation
>> difficult for non-native speakers to use.
>>
>>
> Ah! remember who you are speaking to.
> Being bi-lingual, adds complications.
Very true. :)
>> For example, the made-up word 'ghoti' is often used to describe the
>> idiosyncrasies of English pronunciation. (The actual pronunciation of
>> that made-up word is "fish" - gh from 'tough', o from 'women', ti from
>> 'nation').
>>
>>
> A case of the parts adding to more than the sun of the whoke. :)
Basically, yes. :)
>>> That's because Irish is exceptionally unconventional in how it uses
>>> the latin script to render the language's phonemes.
>>
>> Another that strikes me as in a similar class is Catalan - though a
>> fair amount of the 'misunderstanding' of Catalan vs. European Spanish
>> is less a lack of understanding based on mispronunciation and more what
>> some might just term as 'dickishness'. :)
>>
> Watch it ot ETA will come to get you. :P
LOL, ain't that the truth. It didn't occur to me that I was speaking
Spanish (poorly) when I was in Barcelona, and I thought my Spanish
pronunciation was just a little rusty when a shopkeeper couldn't
understand me. So I tried more slowly, and she "understood", and replied
full speed to my inquiry, even after it was apparent that I wasn't
speaking the same language she was.
¿Tiene libros de fotografías?
and
Té llibres de fotografies?
Are not that far off from each other, but far enough, I think, to inform
the native-speaker that responding at native speed wouldn't be helpful -
and an answer that involves complex directions to a store elsewhere in
the shops probably wasn't going to be understood.
I found what I was looking for, eventually, anyways, so no harm done.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:55:56 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> On 1/26/2016 5:55 PM, Stephen wrote:
>> On 1/26/2016 5:51 PM, Stephen wrote:
>>> That supriseses me. :-P
>>
>> surprises
>>
>> Bugrit!
>> Anyone know how to get Tbird to spell check UK English. The last
>> upgrade has messed up my spellchecker. Grrr!
>>
>>
> See ::(
LOL
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On 1/26/2016 7:13 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:51:55 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>
>> About 20 years ago I was on a rig where the OIM had been to the funeral
>> of the last Doric, of a certain type, speaker.
>
> I need to find out from Alistair what it is that he speaks. He said
> there's one other person in the town he lives in who speaks it.
> Fortunately, they get along. :)
>
Fit like, ma loon?
:)
>>> Welsh actually is one of those languages, as is Irish. Breton, Scotish
>>> Gaelic, Cornish, and Manx are the other living languages.
>>>
>>>
>> Irish, are you talking about Irish Gaelic?
>
> Yes, sorry, I should have been clear on that.
>
Yeah, it took me a while to understand what you meant.
But coming from somewhere that speaks Lowland Scotts/ Ulster Scots. I am
easily confused. :)
>>> I can't tell you how many people mispronounce my cats' names - which
>>> are Manx Gaelic (and actually, relatively simple names to pronounce).
>>>
>>>
>> That supriseses me. :-P
>
> Which part of it?
>
The part where you missed out what your cat is called. :P
> That they're simple names to pronounce?
>
Simple if you know how, I would imagine.
It is like the "ch" sound in loch, I can't understand how some people
cannot ronounce it. Badness I assume. ;)
>
>>> For example, the made-up word 'ghoti' is often used to describe the
>>> idiosyncrasies of English pronunciation. (The actual pronunciation of
>>> that made-up word is "fish" - gh from 'tough', o from 'women', ti from
>>> 'nation').
>>>
>>>
>> A case of the parts adding to more than the sun of the whoke. :)
>
Bloody Adia!
See what happens when your spellchecker does not work. :(
>>>
>> Watch it ot ETA will come to get you. :P
>
> LOL, ain't that the truth. It didn't occur to me that I was speaking
> Spanish (poorly) when I was in Barcelona, and I thought my Spanish
> pronunciation was just a little rusty when a shopkeeper couldn't
> understand me. So I tried more slowly, and she "understood", and replied
> full speed to my inquiry, even after it was apparent that I wasn't
> speaking the same language she was.
>
> ¿Tiene libros de fotografías?
>
> and
>
> Té llibres de fotografies?
>
> Are not that far off from each other, but far enough, I think, to inform
> the native-speaker that responding at native speed wouldn't be helpful -
> and an answer that involves complex directions to a store elsewhere in
> the shops probably wasn't going to be understood.
>
LOL but the Spanish are a good natured people and are very happy that
others try to speak Spanish.
> I found what I was looking for, eventually, anyways, so no harm done.
>
Depend what sort of picture book you were looking for. ^-^
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:54:21 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> On 1/26/2016 7:13 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:51:55 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>
>>> About 20 years ago I was on a rig where the OIM had been to the
>>> funeral of the last Doric, of a certain type, speaker.
>>
>> I need to find out from Alistair what it is that he speaks. He said
>> there's one other person in the town he lives in who speaks it.
>> Fortunately, they get along. :)
>>
>>
> Fit like, ma loon?
> :)
No comprendo. :)
>>>> Welsh actually is one of those languages, as is Irish. Breton,
>>>> Scotish Gaelic, Cornish, and Manx are the other living languages.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Irish, are you talking about Irish Gaelic?
>>
>> Yes, sorry, I should have been clear on that.
>>
>>
> Yeah, it took me a while to understand what you meant.
> But coming from somewhere that speaks Lowland Scotts/ Ulster Scots. I am
> easily confused. :)
:)
>>>> I can't tell you how many people mispronounce my cats' names - which
>>>> are Manx Gaelic (and actually, relatively simple names to pronounce).
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That supriseses me. :-P
>>
>> Which part of it?
>>
>>
> The part where you missed out what your cat is called. :P
Ah - the two in question are Fynn (most people don't have a problem with
that) and Eiyrt (which proves a lot more challenging for most - one vet
tech was so pleased she had it right that we didn't have the heart to
tell her she was actually saying it wrong.)
>> That they're simple names to pronounce?
>>
>>
> Simple if you know how, I would imagine.
> It is like the "ch" sound in loch, I can't understand how some people
> cannot ronounce it. Badness I assume. ;)
Which brings me back to Welsh, naturally. Lots of phlegm, from what I
hear - including from a friend who's from Wales. :)
>>>> For example, the made-up word 'ghoti' is often used to describe the
>>>> idiosyncrasies of English pronunciation. (The actual pronunciation
>>>> of that made-up word is "fish" - gh from 'tough', o from 'women', ti
>>>> from 'nation').
>>>>
>>>>
>>> A case of the parts adding to more than the sun of the whoke. :)
>>
>>
> Bloody Adia!
> See what happens when your spellchecker does not work. :(
I understood what you were saying, though. :)
>>> Watch it ot ETA will come to get you. :P
>>
>> LOL, ain't that the truth. It didn't occur to me that I was speaking
>> Spanish (poorly) when I was in Barcelona, and I thought my Spanish
>> pronunciation was just a little rusty when a shopkeeper couldn't
>> understand me. So I tried more slowly, and she "understood", and
>> replied full speed to my inquiry, even after it was apparent that I
>> wasn't speaking the same language she was.
>>
>> ¿Tiene libros de fotografías?
>>
>> and
>>
>> Té llibres de fotografies?
>>
>> Are not that far off from each other, but far enough, I think, to
>> inform the native-speaker that responding at native speed wouldn't be
>> helpful - and an answer that involves complex directions to a store
>> elsewhere in the shops probably wasn't going to be understood.
>>
>>
> LOL but the Spanish are a good natured people and are very happy that
> others try to speak Spanish.
Yeah. It's the "Catalonians" who are not as good natured (though, I have
to admit, in almost 2 weeks there, I only ran into the one person who had
a problem with my Spanish - though that might be because I didn't use it
much, and on the cab ride from the airport, the other guy in the cab
spoke fluent Spanish/Catalan, as he'd served an LDS mission in Barcelona,
so I didn't have to talk at all.)
>> I found what I was looking for, eventually, anyways, so no harm done.
>>
>>
> Depend what sort of picture book you were looking for. ^-^
My eldest brother had an control issue that kept him to about a 2-mile
radius of the apartment he lived in at the time; he'd used to like to
travel some until the mid 70s or so, and then he just couldn't - some
kind of phobia.
I thought it'd be nice to get him a book that showed some of Barcelona -
but he didn't speak or read Spanish (or Catalan) at all, so I thought a
nice book of photos would be good. :)
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Am 28.01.2016 um 00:48 schrieb Jim Henderson:
>> The part where you missed out what your cat is called. :P
>
> Ah - the two in question are Fynn (most people don't have a problem with
> that) and Eiyrt (which proves a lot more challenging for most - one vet
> tech was so pleased she had it right that we didn't have the heart to
> tell her she was actually saying it wrong.)
I'd try "Finn" and "Art", hoping that -- as seems to be so often the
case with Gaelic names -- it's not so much the pronunciation but just
the orthography that's weird. Such as "Sean" for what is essentially "John".
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On 28-1-2016 1:24, clipka wrote:
> Am 28.01.2016 um 00:48 schrieb Jim Henderson:
>
>>> The part where you missed out what your cat is called. :P
>>
>> Ah - the two in question are Fynn (most people don't have a problem with
>> that) and Eiyrt (which proves a lot more challenging for most - one vet
>> tech was so pleased she had it right that we didn't have the heart to
>> tell her she was actually saying it wrong.)
>
> I'd try "Finn" and "Art", hoping that -- as seems to be so often the
> case with Gaelic names -- it's not so much the pronunciation but just
> the orthography that's weird. Such as "Sean" for what is essentially "John".
>
I have long time wondered: why the weird orthography?
--
Thomas
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Am 28.01.2016 um 09:22 schrieb Thomas de Groot:
> On 28-1-2016 1:24, clipka wrote:
>> Am 28.01.2016 um 00:48 schrieb Jim Henderson:
>>
>>>> The part where you missed out what your cat is called. :P
>>>
>>> Ah - the two in question are Fynn (most people don't have a problem with
>>> that) and Eiyrt (which proves a lot more challenging for most - one vet
>>> tech was so pleased she had it right that we didn't have the heart to
>>> tell her she was actually saying it wrong.)
>>
>> I'd try "Finn" and "Art", hoping that -- as seems to be so often the
>> case with Gaelic names -- it's not so much the pronunciation but just
>> the orthography that's weird. Such as "Sean" for what is essentially
>> "John".
>
> I have long time wondered: why the weird orthography?
One reason is that the Gaelic language distinguishes various pairs of
consonant phonemes that in other Western European languages are mostly
allophones (i.e. different variations of one and the same phoneme, such
as the "p" in "pop" vs. "pip"), and for which consequently the latin
script provides only one symbol each.
When the Gaelic people adopted the Latin script for writing, instead of
introducing diacritical marks to distinguish those consonant variants,
they instead co-opted the vowel symbols for this use.
Thus, the "e" in "Sean", even though being a latin vowel symbol,
doesn't represent a vowel at all, and rather identifies the "s" as being
the variant that in Gaelic would normally be associated with an "e"
vowel (which happens to be similar to the English "sh") rather than that
normally associated with the "a" vowel actually spoken (which would be a
regular "s" sound).
("s" is actually one of the very few cases where the Gaelic pairs of
phonemes aren't allophones in English.)
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