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On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 16:22:42 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> True, some people, like a certain niece of mine, can't even figure out
> that, "You need to change the oil once in a while."
>
> But, cars you at least "can" do maintenance on, or have other people do
> so, and you don't generally, on having them do that, find that 90% of
> the "experts" you might want to take them to are going to either a) be
> unable to fix a broken taillight wire, or b) do so without stealing
> every single things you had in the trunk, and throwing it in a dumpster,
> because it was "unfixable" with all your shit still in the vehicle. PCs,
> especially, tend to exhibit both traits....
No, those who want to learn how stuff works can, even with PCs.
But a microchip is just a tad more complex than a combustion engine,
too. The same holds true for magnetic recording media, storage devices,
etc.
Jim
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On 13/09/2013 5:43 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> But a microchip is just a tad more complex than a combustion engine,
> too.
Not any more it's not. ;-)
I used to service my own cars and bikes. Other than check the fluids all
I can do with the engine nowadays is check that it is still there. :-)
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 06:20:50 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 13/09/2013 5:43 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> But a microchip is just a tad more complex than a combustion engine,
>> too.
>
> Not any more it's not. ;-)
>
> I used to service my own cars and bikes. Other than check the fluids all
> I can do with the engine nowadays is check that it is still there. :-)
Well, some cars have computers in them now, that's true. But the
mechanical parts are still basically the same. Patrick's analogy is
flawed because he's comparing physical items in the boot to data on a
hard drive. The two are so /not/ comparable it's not even funny.
Jim
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On 9/13/2013 9:44 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 06:20:50 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 13/09/2013 5:43 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> But a microchip is just a tad more complex than a combustion engine,
>>> too.
>>
>> Not any more it's not. ;-)
>>
>> I used to service my own cars and bikes. Other than check the fluids all
>> I can do with the engine nowadays is check that it is still there. :-)
>
> Well, some cars have computers in them now, that's true. But the
> mechanical parts are still basically the same. Patrick's analogy is
> flawed because he's comparing physical items in the boot to data on a
> hard drive. The two are so /not/ comparable it's not even funny.
>
> Jim
>
Give me a break. It was supposed to be a bit of a joke. But, it is never
the less true anyway. "Reinstall" is practically a #1 solution in
Windows, when things break bad enough, and, even if you don't throw out
everything in the trunk when you do that (instead of the equivalent of
taking it out, then putting it all back in again), the process of
"fixing" a problem by doing such a thing goes a bit beyond replacing the
air freshener. Its more like stripping the car down to the body shell,
then having to "reinstall" every single part, from the ground up, just
to fix a loose wire, at least.. under Windows anyway. Linux is a bit
less stupid about it. But, if you want a better example, how about a
motor home, instead of a car? Those things are, from what I brother
says, built with no clear plan, beyond the chassis, everything tacked on
where ever it fits, and damn near no intention/design-considerations,
with respect to, "How the fuck is someone supposed to get at this part
of the vehicle, to fix it, when it break, without literally removing
half of the entire vehicle, and everything installed in it?"
So, yeah, there can be some valid comparisons you can make.
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On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 16:17:48 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Give me a break.
OK, done. :)
Jim
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On 13/09/2013 5:44 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 06:20:50 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 13/09/2013 5:43 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> But a microchip is just a tad more complex than a combustion engine,
>>> too.
>>
>> Not any more it's not. ;-)
>>
>> I used to service my own cars and bikes. Other than check the fluids all
>> I can do with the engine nowadays is check that it is still there. :-)
>
> Well, some cars have computers in them now, that's true.
Would you not consider a car's fuel control system a computer?
> But the mechanical parts are still basically the same.
Yes the bits that go roundy round are basically similar as is the
structural nits. But how do you set up the spark plug timing on your car?
> Patrick's analogy is
> flawed because he's comparing physical items in the boot to data on a
> hard drive. The two are so /not/ comparable it's not even funny.
>
All analogies break down at some point, eh?
The real problem is that computers are domestic appliances now. They are
not just for geeks.
Here is another analogy or parable, whatever.
Rule number one when working with electrical equipment is disconnect it
from the mains before opening it up. Yes?
So you can understand in a way why my boss's boss gave me a bollocking
for working on exposed live equipment. (H&S to the forefront)
He had no answer to my question "How do I trouble shoot if it is dead?"
He went away, I powered it up, found the fault and all was well.
Mixing techie and non-techie is a very hard thing to do.
I've run out of steam, now.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 07:50:19 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 13/09/2013 5:44 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 06:20:50 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/09/2013 5:43 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> But a microchip is just a tad more complex than a combustion engine,
>>>> too.
>>>
>>> Not any more it's not. ;-)
>>>
>>> I used to service my own cars and bikes. Other than check the fluids
>>> all I can do with the engine nowadays is check that it is still there.
>>> :-)
>>
>> Well, some cars have computers in them now, that's true.
>
> Would you not consider a car's fuel control system a computer?
Depends on the car. Not if it's just a throttle cable.
>> But the mechanical parts are still basically the same.
>
> Yes the bits that go roundy round are basically similar as is the
> structural nits. But how do you set up the spark plug timing on your
> car?
I have no idea - but I could ask my father-in-law or brother-in-law.
IIRC, there's a timing belt/chain in older cars that don't use electronic
fuel injection.
>> Patrick's analogy is flawed because he's comparing physical items in
>> the boot to data on a hard drive. The two are so /not/ comparable it's
>> not even funny.
>>
> All analogies break down at some point, eh?
> The real problem is that computers are domestic appliances now. They are
> not just for geeks.
> Here is another analogy or parable, whatever.
> Rule number one when working with electrical equipment is disconnect it
> from the mains before opening it up. Yes?
Not necessarily. First, unplugging it isn't going to protect you from a
charged capacitor - any first year electronics student knows that.
> So you can understand in a way why my boss's boss gave me a bollocking
> for working on exposed live equipment. (H&S to the forefront)
> He had no answer to my question "How do I trouble shoot if it is dead?"
> He went away, I powered it up, found the fault and all was well.
> Mixing techie and non-techie is a very hard thing to do.
Well, sure.
> I've run out of steam, now.
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On 14/09/2013 6:32 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 07:50:19 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>>> Well, some cars have computers in them now, that's true.
>>
>> Would you not consider a car's fuel control system a computer?
>
> Depends on the car. Not if it's just a throttle cable.
>
Maybe it is just me but I've not had a car that had a direct throttle
drive for 20 years or so and I don't buy new cars. Current one is almost
10 years old and the one before that was 13 years old when it died on me.
>>> But the mechanical parts are still basically the same.
>>
>> Yes the bits that go roundy round are basically similar as is the
>> structural nits. But how do you set up the spark plug timing on your
>> car?
>
> I have no idea - but I could ask my father-in-law or brother-in-law.
> IIRC, there's a timing belt/chain in older cars that don't use electronic
> fuel injection.
>
It is the distributor that you adjust. Using a timing light connected to
the #1 spark plug. The strobe effect makes a timing mark on the fan belt
drive wheel appear stationary. The distributor is adjusted to that the
dynamic timing mark is at TDC. IIRC
>>> Patrick's analogy is flawed because he's comparing physical items in
>>> the boot to data on a hard drive. The two are so /not/ comparable it's
>>> not even funny.
>>>
>> All analogies break down at some point, eh?
>> The real problem is that computers are domestic appliances now. They are
>> not just for geeks.
>> Here is another analogy or parable, whatever.
>> Rule number one when working with electrical equipment is disconnect it
>> from the mains before opening it up. Yes?
>
> Not necessarily. First, unplugging it isn't going to protect you from a
> charged capacitor - any first year electronics student knows that.
>
That why I missed that out so not to take up more bandwidth and to
respect you savy-ness.
>> So you can understand in a way why my boss's boss gave me a bollocking
>> for working on exposed live equipment. (H&S to the forefront)
>> He had no answer to my question "How do I trouble shoot if it is dead?"
>> He went away, I powered it up, found the fault and all was well.
>> Mixing techie and non-techie is a very hard thing to do.
>
> Well, sure.
>
So that is where the problem lies. Manufacturers don't make a lot of
money if they can't sell a product to lots of non technical people.
And if you try to make a computer idiot proof, techies rail at the
restrictions imposed.
I want to buy a new laptop but I don't want Win 8 with "even your 5 year
old can operate it" OS. Nor do I want Linux where I'll have to learn a
new OS or not be able to run M$ office, for work compatibility.
I might as well ask here. Does anyone have any recommendations for a
light weight laptop that has a reasonable spec to run PovRay and Blender
and weighs a lot less the the 3kg (6.6 lb) DTR I have to lug around?
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 20:52:35 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 14/09/2013 6:32 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 07:50:19 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Well, some cars have computers in them now, that's true.
>>>
>>> Would you not consider a car's fuel control system a computer?
>>
>> Depends on the car. Not if it's just a throttle cable.
>>
>>
> Maybe it is just me but I've not had a car that had a direct throttle
> drive for 20 years or so and I don't buy new cars. Current one is almost
> 10 years old and the one before that was 13 years old when it died on
> me.
Well, yeah, like I said, if it's not an EFI system, but those have been
around for a while.
>>>> But the mechanical parts are still basically the same.
>>>
>>> Yes the bits that go roundy round are basically similar as is the
>>> structural nits. But how do you set up the spark plug timing on your
>>> car?
>>
>> I have no idea - but I could ask my father-in-law or brother-in-law.
>> IIRC, there's a timing belt/chain in older cars that don't use
>> electronic fuel injection.
>>
> It is the distributor that you adjust. Using a timing light connected to
> the #1 spark plug. The strobe effect makes a timing mark on the fan belt
> drive wheel appear stationary. The distributor is adjusted to that the
> dynamic timing mark is at TDC. IIRC
See how much I know about cars? I changed the battery once and was shown
how to change the brake pads once, but I'm no expert. Amy knows a lot
more about that sort of stuff - which makes sense, since she grew up in a
family that works on cars (her brother teaches auto body repair at the
local vocational/technical school where she grew up).
>> Not necessarily. First, unplugging it isn't going to protect you from
>> a charged capacitor - any first year electronics student knows that.
>>
> That why I missed that out so not to take up more bandwidth and to
> respect you savy-ness.
;)
>>> So you can understand in a way why my boss's boss gave me a bollocking
>>> for working on exposed live equipment. (H&S to the forefront)
>>> He had no answer to my question "How do I trouble shoot if it is
>>> dead?" He went away, I powered it up, found the fault and all was
>>> well.
>>> Mixing techie and non-techie is a very hard thing to do.
>>
>> Well, sure.
>>
>>
> So that is where the problem lies. Manufacturers don't make a lot of
> money if they can't sell a product to lots of non technical people.
> And if you try to make a computer idiot proof, techies rail at the
> restrictions imposed.
Yep. And that's the problem Patrick has. The system is idiot-proof, but
he's no idiot, and wants to do what he wants to do. You can't mass-
market something like that, though, because the non-technical people who
make up the "masses" are going to be idiots when it comes to technology,
because they just want to drive to work, they don't want to fine-tune the
fuel injection system.
> I want to buy a new laptop but I don't want Win 8 with "even your 5 year
> old can operate it" OS. Nor do I want Linux where I'll have to learn a
> new OS or not be able to run M$ office, for work compatibility.
So you have to compromise and get the mass-market option.
> I might as well ask here. Does anyone have any recommendations for a
> light weight laptop that has a reasonable spec to run PovRay and Blender
> and weighs a lot less the the 3kg (6.6 lb) DTR I have to lug around?
I've been happy with my Dell laptop, but I'm not sure how much it
weighs. It's a couple years old - the 17R (N7110 is another number I see
associated with it), but is pretty speedy (i7 processor) and has plenty
of memory (8GB, max for this model).
Jim
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On 14/09/2013 9:33 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 20:52:35 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>
> See how much I know about cars? I changed the battery once and was shown
> how to change the brake pads once, but I'm no expert. Amy knows a lot
> more about that sort of stuff - which makes sense, since she grew up in a
> family that works on cars (her brother teaches auto body repair at the
> local vocational/technical school where she grew up).
>
It was necessity that taught me. Not a love of getting my hands dirty.
>> So that is where the problem lies. Manufacturers don't make a lot of
>> money if they can't sell a product to lots of non technical people.
>> And if you try to make a computer idiot proof, techies rail at the
>> restrictions imposed.
>
> Yep. And that's the problem Patrick has. The system is idiot-proof, but
> he's no idiot, and wants to do what he wants to do. You can't mass-
> market something like that, though, because the non-technical people who
> make up the "masses" are going to be idiots when it comes to technology,
> because they just want to drive to work, they don't want to fine-tune the
> fuel injection system.
>
I was going to say, not quite idiot proof, but then I thought of one of
my brothers-in-law. Who is handless but only knackers his computer
because he downloads every free game he can. So I suppose it is.
Maybe it is age that makes me feel that I can't be bothered keeping up
with the times but want to stay with something that works the way I know
it works. And since I don't want all the touch screen junk. I might buy
an ultra laptop (what a name) and buy a copy of Win7 and install that
over Win 8.
>> I want to buy a new laptop but I don't want Win 8 with "even your 5 year
>> old can operate it" OS. Nor do I want Linux where I'll have to learn a
>> new OS or not be able to run M$ office, for work compatibility.
>
> So you have to compromise and get the mass-market option.
>
Yes. Doesn't make me a happy bunny, though.
>> I might as well ask here. Does anyone have any recommendations for a
>> light weight laptop that has a reasonable spec to run PovRay and Blender
>> and weighs a lot less the the 3kg (6.6 lb) DTR I have to lug around?
>
> I've been happy with my Dell laptop, but I'm not sure how much it
> weighs. It's a couple years old - the 17R (N7110 is another number I see
> associated with it), but is pretty speedy (i7 processor) and has plenty
> of memory (8GB, max for this model).
>
It looks good, similar spec to my Toshiba but with a bigger HDD. Still
it is hefty at > 3 kg. I want something lighter even if it has a lower
spec. All the travelling that I'm doing atm means my tennis elbow is
playing up.
--
Regards
Stephen
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