On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 21:19:26 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> Fun fact: For three months the estate agent has been promising me that
>>> the contract would appear in the next day or so. Every time a
>>> difference excuse as to why it hasn't happened yet, but "it's fixed
>>> now". On Monday my mother phoned them and suggested that I might pull
>>> out of the deal. By Friday of the same week, the contract had
>>> appeared.
>>
>> Sounds like the tactic your mother used is something to learn from. ;)
> 
> It's astonishingly how quickly people can make stuff happen if they
> think there's money involved...

More accurately, if they think they're going to lose money. ;)

But yes, what your mother did is something to keep in mind.  They want 
you to continue to be a customer, and if you decide that they're wasting 
your time and are going to leave, if there's enough money in it for them 
to react in a way other than "OK, see'ya", they'll get things moving.

There are always plenty of estate agents and solicitors around, so that's 
a tactic that can work well in cases like this.

Jim

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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> In fairness, the "printer's point" is one of those obscure measurements 
> which is only used in one specific field - much like the Troy ounce, the 
> carat, or the furlong...

Are barrels used for anything else than oil?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 19/07/2013 8:45 PM, clipka wrote:
>
> BTW, does anyone outside the world of printed circuit board design ever
> use the measurement "mil"?

I've never used it.
I have used Mils and thought that was generic British for I'm working in 
that foreign stuff.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 19/07/2013 09:35 PM, Warp wrote:
> Orchid Win7 v1<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> In fairness, the "printer's point" is one of those obscure measurements
>> which is only used in one specific field - much like the Troy ounce, the
>> carat, or the furlong...
>
> Are barrels used for anything else than oil?

According to Wikipedia, it also measures beer, cornmeal, Portland 
cement, sugar, flour, lime and cranberries.

Note also that ALL of these "barrels" are standardised BUT COMPLETELY 
UNRELATED sizes. (!!)

(That is, a "barrel" of flour is utterly unrelated to the weight or 
volume or a "barrel" of cement.)

So much for weird historical units...

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On 19/07/2013 11:15 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>
> According to Wikipedia, it also measures beer, cornmeal, Portland
> cement, sugar, flour, lime and cranberries.

"Also" is a good word. It means that my vague memory is correct. Phew!

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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> According to Wikipedia, it also measures beer, cornmeal, Portland
> cement, sugar, flour, lime and cranberries.

I should perhaps clarify that it's "lime" as in calcium hydroxide, not 
as in the fruit. (How would THAT work?? Then again, cranberries...)

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On 19/07/2013 11:48 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>> According to Wikipedia, it also measures beer, cornmeal, Portland
>> cement, sugar, flour, lime and cranberries.
>
> I should perhaps clarify that it's "lime" as in calcium hydroxide, not
> as in the fruit. (How would THAT work?? Then again, cranberries...)

Do you have any idea why Americans call us Limeys?

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Am 19.07.2013 23:00, schrieb Stephen:
> On 19/07/2013 8:45 PM, clipka wrote:
>>
>> BTW, does anyone outside the world of printed circuit board design ever
>> use the measurement "mil"?
>
> I've never used it.
> I have used Mils and thought that was generic British for I'm working in
> that foreign stuff.

That "mil" I'm speaking of (plural "mils", but I've never encountered 
that in the PCB layout software I'm using) apparently is American 
English for "thou".

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Am 19.07.2013 23:55, schrieb Stephen:
> On 19/07/2013 11:48 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>> According to Wikipedia, it also measures beer, cornmeal, Portland
>>> cement, sugar, flour, lime and cranberries.
>>
>> I should perhaps clarify that it's "lime" as in calcium hydroxide, not
>> as in the fruit. (How would THAT work?? Then again, cranberries...)
>
> Do you have any idea why Americans call us Limeys?

Because (or so claims Wikipedia) your forefathers, when going to sea, 
added lemon or lime juice to their grog to prevent scurvy.

Germans used Sauerkraut for the same purpose (or so I've heard tell), 
hence the Americans calling us Krauts.

Not sure what the Americans used themselves; I must presume they were 
just too plain stupid to do anything about it :-P

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On 19/07/2013 11:57 PM, clipka wrote:
>
> That "mil" I'm speaking of (plural "mils", but I've never encountered
> that in the PCB layout software I'm using) apparently is American
> English for "thou".

It rings a bell but I've never used it myself. But then I worked in 
manufacturing. PCB's were either bought in to assemble or to fit in a 
machine. Not even systems, some of them.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 20/07/2013 12:09 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 19.07.2013 23:55, schrieb Stephen:
>> On 19/07/2013 11:48 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>>> According to Wikipedia, it also measures beer, cornmeal, Portland
>>>> cement, sugar, flour, lime and cranberries.
>>>
>>> I should perhaps clarify that it's "lime" as in calcium hydroxide, not
>>> as in the fruit. (How would THAT work?? Then again, cranberries...)
>>
>> Do you have any idea why Americans call us Limeys?
>
> Because (or so claims Wikipedia) your forefathers, when going to sea,
> added lemon or lime juice to their grog to prevent scurvy.
>
> Germans used Sauerkraut for the same purpose (or so I've heard tell),
> hence the Americans calling us Krauts.
>
> Not sure what the Americans used themselves; I must presume they were
> just too plain stupid to do anything about it :-P
>


They used lemons which are a better source of vitamin C.
There was some skulduggery going on at the time between us and the rest 
of the world. And no one would sell the Brits lemons. So we used limes 
from one of the islands in the Caribbean. Hence Limeys.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 00:31:27 +0200, Stephen wrote:

> On 20/07/2013 12:09 AM, clipka wrote:
>> Am 19.07.2013 23:55, schrieb Stephen:
>>> On 19/07/2013 11:48 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>>>> According to Wikipedia, it also measures beer, cornmeal, Portland
>>>>> cement, sugar, flour, lime and cranberries.
>>>>
>>>> I should perhaps clarify that it's "lime" as in calcium hydroxide,
>>>> not as in the fruit. (How would THAT work?? Then again,
>>>> cranberries...)
>>>
>>> Do you have any idea why Americans call us Limeys?
>>
>> Because (or so claims Wikipedia) your forefathers, when going to sea,
>> added lemon or lime juice to their grog to prevent scurvy.
>>
>> Germans used Sauerkraut for the same purpose (or so I've heard tell),
>> hence the Americans calling us Krauts.
>>
>> Not sure what the Americans used themselves; I must presume they were
>> just too plain stupid to do anything about it :-P
>>
>>
> 
> They used lemons which are a better source of vitamin C.

Not initially, though.  They used "rob", which was a mix of sauerkraut 
and a concentrated fruit juice mixture, which was boiled.  Well, I guess 
the fruit juice concentrate could have been (or had as a component) 
lemon, so fair play on that. :)

> There was some skulduggery going on at the time between us and the rest
> of the world. And no one would sell the Brits lemons. So we used limes
> from one of the islands in the Caribbean. Hence Limeys.

First recorded use of "Lime juicer" (which became "limey") to refer to a 
Brit was 1859.

Jim

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On 20/07/2013 12:50 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Not initially, though.  They used "rob", which was a mix of sauerkraut
> and a concentrated fruit juice mixture, which was boiled.  Well, I guess
> the fruit juice concentrate could have been (or had as a component)
> lemon, so fair play on that.:)
>
>> >There was some skulduggery going on at the time between us and the rest
>> >of the world. And no one would sell the Brits lemons. So we used limes
>> >from one of the islands in the Caribbean. Hence Limeys.
> First recorded use of "Lime juicer" (which became "limey") to refer to a
> Brit was 1859.

I did not know any of that. I only found out about the embargo, recently.
I tried looking it up and guess it was another Stephen Fry lie, said in 
a convincing manor.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 01:27:21 +0200, Stephen wrote:

> On 20/07/2013 12:50 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Not initially, though.  They used "rob", which was a mix of sauerkraut
>> and a concentrated fruit juice mixture, which was boiled.  Well, I
>> guess the fruit juice concentrate could have been (or had as a
>> component) lemon, so fair play on that.:)
>>
>>> >There was some skulduggery going on at the time between us and the
>>> >rest of the world. And no one would sell the Brits lemons. So we used
>>> >limes from one of the islands in the Caribbean. Hence Limeys.
>> First recorded use of "Lime juicer" (which became "limey") to refer to
>> a Brit was 1859.
> 
> I did not know any of that. I only found out about the embargo,
> recently.
> I tried looking it up and guess it was another Stephen Fry lie, said in
> a convincing manor.

Well, I'll cop to my source being John Lloyd for that, and it wouldn't be 
the first time that I'd seen/heard something in one of his books that I 
knew wasn't quite correct.

OED cites an example from 1888 as its earliest citation, but OED doesn't 
always have the earliest, since the quotations are just examples. But it 
does confirm something I thought was the case, which is that it wasn't 
common to the US, but more common to other colonies, notably Australia, 
New Zeland, and South Africa. At least as an "English Immigrant".

In the US, the term comes along later (or at least the earliest quote 
citing it is later, 1918), referring to an English or British sailor. 
That actually does match up with the information in the Second Book of 
General Ignorance (the quotation uses "lime-juicer" to refer to the ship, 
and "limeys" to refer to the sailors).

But Mr. Fry doesn't do the research, generally, for QI.  I don't know 
that Lloyd does that much of it any more, either. ;)

Jim

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Am 20.07.2013 01:27, schrieb Stephen:
> On 20/07/2013 12:50 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Not initially, though.  They used "rob", which was a mix of sauerkraut
>> and a concentrated fruit juice mixture, which was boiled.  Well, I guess
>> the fruit juice concentrate could have been (or had as a component)
>> lemon, so fair play on that.:)
>>
>>> >There was some skulduggery going on at the time between us and the rest
>>> >of the world. And no one would sell the Brits lemons. So we used limes
>>> >from one of the islands in the Caribbean. Hence Limeys.
>> First recorded use of "Lime juicer" (which became "limey") to refer to a
>> Brit was 1859.
>
> I did not know any of that. I only found out about the embargo, recently.
> I tried looking it up and guess it was another Stephen Fry lie, said in
> a convincing manor.

Never believe a person named Stephen ;-)

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On 19/07/2013 3:02 PM, clipka wrote:
> The use of fractions, all by itself, is still on the fun side; just wait
> until you have to express longer distances to high precision, as in "2
> ft 3 1/4 in".

What is wrong with saying "two feet, three and a quarter inches"?

But on a side issue. Our move to the SI system coinciding with cheap 
calculators means that younger people can no longer do sums in their 
head even with a very simple money system. And by younger I mean people 
in their early 30's. Shop assistants need a calculator to add two items 
then subtract it from the money tendered.I think that being forced to 
use your mind to do quite complex simple arithmetic, was no bad thing.

Lordy! Things were better in my day.
Heaven help the shopkeeper who tried to short change some one on a 
thrupenny ha'penny purchase when handing over a half crown. ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 20/07/2013 9:55 AM, clipka wrote:
> Never believe a person named Stephen ;-)

It didn't take you long to learn. :-P
Although believe ME. When I say that if it can be broken, I will break 
it. :-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Am 20.07.2013 11:05, schrieb Stephen:

> Lordy! Things were better in my day.

I bet! - Nowadays, even the good old times ain't what they used to be...

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On 20/07/2013 10:12 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 20.07.2013 11:05, schrieb Stephen:
>
>> Lordy! Things were better in my day.
>
> I bet! - Nowadays, even the good old times ain't what they used to be...
>

How true. Notice that I did not mention being strapped (beaten by a 
leather strap on the hand) for bad spelling? Or even sneezing in class, 
as one boy, in my class, was.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 20/07/2013 3:29 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Well, I'll cop to my source being John Lloyd for that, and it wouldn't be
> the first time that I'd seen/heard something in one of his books that I
> knew wasn't quite correct.
>

True. I would think that there is a team of researchers being used for QI.

> OED cites an example from 1888 as its earliest citation, but OED doesn't
> always have the earliest, since the quotations are just examples. But it
> does confirm something I thought was the case, which is that it wasn't
> common to the US, but more common to other colonies, notably Australia,
> New Zeland, and South Africa. At least as an "English Immigrant".
>

Our "received wisdom" is that it was Poms for Brits in the antipodes.
But you never can tell.

> In the US, the term comes along later (or at least the earliest quote
> citing it is later, 1918), referring to an English or British sailor.
> That actually does match up with the information in the Second Book of
> General Ignorance (the quotation uses "lime-juicer" to refer to the ship,
> and "limeys" to refer to the sailors).
>

Jack Tars, this side of the pond. Me lad!
Oo Arr!

BTW Did you know that Avast! Me hearties. Actually means "Stop what 
you're doing"?

> But Mr. Fry doesn't do the research, generally, for QI.  I don't know
> that Lloyd does that much of it any more, either.;)

Mr. Fry says more than his prayers, when he wants to impress. IMO.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 19/07/2013 11:31 PM, Stephen wrote:
> They used lemons which are a better source of vitamin C.

The daft thing is, blackcurrent is even better.

(Although I'm not sure how long that would last at sea...)

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clipka wrote:
> 
> BTW, does anyone outside the world of printed circuit board design ever
> use the measurement "mil"?
> 

Yes.


Swedish use it as a synonym for 10 kilometers. :-)

-Aero

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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> > three seventy-seconds of one inch
>
> I think that at least *some* Americans realize how ridiculous the
> imperial measurement system is. It's a petty that resistance to change
> is such a huge psychological phenomenon that it's not going to change
> any time soon.
>
> --
>                                                           - Warp

I actually had a laugh at the "three seventy" vs the usual "seventy three".  or
did he mean "3 x seventy-seconds"?

then again, I'm used to it from Sherlock Holmes books :)

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On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 10:45:38 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 20/07/2013 3:29 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Well, I'll cop to my source being John Lloyd for that, and it wouldn't
>> be the first time that I'd seen/heard something in one of his books
>> that I knew wasn't quite correct.
>>
>>
> True. I would think that there is a team of researchers being used for
> QI.

There is - they talk about it on the official site (and in the books). :)

>> OED cites an example from 1888 as its earliest citation, but OED
>> doesn't always have the earliest, since the quotations are just
>> examples. But it does confirm something I thought was the case, which
>> is that it wasn't common to the US, but more common to other colonies,
>> notably Australia, New Zeland, and South Africa. At least as an
>> "English Immigrant".
>>
>>
> Our "received wisdom" is that it was Poms for Brits in the antipodes.
> But you never can tell.

That's one of the goals QI has, though - to challenge the received 
wisdom. ;)

But clearly they don't always get it right. :)

>> In the US, the term comes along later (or at least the earliest quote
>> citing it is later, 1918), referring to an English or British sailor.
>> That actually does match up with the information in the Second Book of
>> General Ignorance (the quotation uses "lime-juicer" to refer to the
>> ship,
>> and "limeys" to refer to the sailors).
>>
>>
> Jack Tars, this side of the pond. Me lad!
> Oo Arr!
> 
> BTW Did you know that Avast! Me hearties. Actually means "Stop what
> you're doing"?

I didn't - well, I knew "Avast" was a way of saying "stop", but beyond 
that I didn't. :)

>> But Mr. Fry doesn't do the research, generally, for QI.  I don't know
>> that Lloyd does that much of it any more, either.;)
> 
> Mr. Fry says more than his prayers, when he wants to impress. IMO.

Given his lack of religious convictions, that's pretty easy to achieve, 
don't you think? ;)

Jim

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On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 18:33:06 -0400, nemesis wrote:

> Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>> Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> > three seventy-seconds of one inch
>>
>> I think that at least *some* Americans realize how ridiculous the
>> imperial measurement system is. It's a petty that resistance to change
>> is such a huge psychological phenomenon that it's not going to change
>> any time soon.
>>
>> --
>>                                                           - Warp
> 
> I actually had a laugh at the "three seventy" vs the usual "seventy
> three".  or did he mean "3 x seventy-seconds"?
> 
> then again, I'm used to it from Sherlock Holmes books :)

3/72 is what was meant (not sure if you were not getting that, or being 
silly)

Jim

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> BTW, does anyone outside the world of printed circuit board design ever
> use the measurement "mil"?

3M use mils for thickness of optical films - if it wasn't for the large 
difference in scale then it would have been very confusing.

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 18:33:06 -0400, nemesis wrote:
>
> > Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> >> Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> >> > three seventy-seconds of one inch
> >>
> >> I think that at least *some* Americans realize how ridiculous the
> >> imperial measurement system is. It's a petty that resistance to change
> >> is such a huge psychological phenomenon that it's not going to change
> >> any time soon.
> >>
> >> --
> >>                                                           - Warp
> >
> > I actually had a laugh at the "three seventy" vs the usual "seventy
> > three".  or did he mean "3 x seventy-seconds"?
> >
> > then again, I'm used to it from Sherlock Holmes books :)
>
> 3/72 is what was meant (not sure if you were not getting that, or being
> silly)
>
> Jim

I think that if you are not used to the system it is easy to read it as three
times seventy seconds. Then when you realise what is meant you laugh at your
embarrassment at getting it wrong.
It is great how English words change their meaning depending on their context.

Stephen

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 10:45:38 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
> > Mr. Fry says more than his prayers, when he wants to impress. IMO.
>
> Given his lack of religious convictions, that's pretty easy to achieve,
> don't you think? ;)
>


Oh! I don’t know if you know the phrase. It means “does not always tell the
truth”.

Stephen

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> It is great how English words change their meaning depending on their context.

Not just English - more or less every human language ever invented! ;-)

I especially enjoy how "and" sometimes means "or", and "or" sometimes 
means "and". No wonder students suck at Boolean algebra! :-D

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> I especially enjoy how "and" sometimes means "or", and "or" sometimes
> means "and". No wonder students suck at Boolean algebra! :-D

After an hour of boolean algebra our teacher announced that people with 
birthdays in April and May should stay behind. Obviously a few people 
stayed behind only to get yelled at :-)

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On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 05:58:11 -0400, Stephen wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 10:45:38 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>
>> > Mr. Fry says more than his prayers, when he wants to impress. IMO.
>>
>> Given his lack of religious convictions, that's pretty easy to achieve,
>> don't you think? ;)
>>
>>
> 
> Oh! I don’t know if you know the phrase. It means “does not 
always tell
> the truth”.
> 
> Stephen

Ah, that's a new one for me. :)

But I think all of us tell fibs now and again.  I don't think I've ever 
met anyone who's 100% truthful all the time, even those of us who try to 
be.

Jim

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On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 05:50:57 -0400, Stephen wrote:

> I think that if you are not used to the system it is easy to read it as
> three times seventy seconds. Then when you realise what is meant you
> laugh at your embarrassment at getting it wrong.

Oh, yes, I think so as well.  It's just that when I see a measurement, I 
don't think in terms of time. ;)

> It is great how English words change their meaning depending on their
> context.

Yep, also true in other languages, too. :)

Jim

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On 22/07/2013 11:29 AM, scott wrote:
>> I especially enjoy how "and" sometimes means "or", and "or" sometimes
>> means "and". No wonder students suck at Boolean algebra! :-D
>
> After an hour of boolean algebra our teacher announced that people with
> birthdays in April and May should stay behind. Obviously a few people
> stayed behind only to get yelled at :-)

PWN3D!

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On 22/07/2013 5:24 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Oh, yes, I think so as well.  It's just that when I see a measurement, I
> don't think in terms of time.;)

Now we know why you failed your Time Lord exams. :-P

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 22/07/2013 5:23 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Ah, that's a new one for me.:)
>

It might just be an Irish and Scottish one. I have no way of knowing.

> But I think all of us tell fibs now and again.  I don't think I've ever
> met anyone who's 100% truthful all the time, even those of us who try to
> be.

;-)
Don't get me started. I have a very low opinion of him as a person. I 
will admit he is funny, though.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 19:44:23 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 22/07/2013 5:23 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Ah, that's a new one for me.:)
>>
>>
> It might just be an Irish and Scottish one. I have no way of knowing.

That could be.

>> But I think all of us tell fibs now and again.  I don't think I've ever
>> met anyone who's 100% truthful all the time, even those of us who try
>> to be.
> 
> ;-)
> Don't get me started. I have a very low opinion of him as a person. I
> will admit he is funny, though.

Well, you're not alone in that low opinion - he's fought depression for a 
long time, and at times has a low opinion of himself, sadly.

I don't know him as a person, though, just as a comedian and occasional 
user/champion of open source software (though he does seem to like his 
Macs a lot).

Jim

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On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 19:40:24 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 22/07/2013 5:24 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Oh, yes, I think so as well.  It's just that when I see a measurement,
>> I don't think in terms of time.;)
> 
> Now we know why you failed your Time Lord exams. :-P

Well, I meant a distance measurement.  I only made it to level 42 time 
lord, though. ;)

Jim

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Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I especially enjoy how "and" sometimes means "or", and "or" sometimes 
> means "and". No wonder students suck at Boolean algebra! :-D

I find it more interesting that the same word "or" is used in speech
for "inclusive or" and "exclusive or", yet it very rarely, if ever,
causes any confusion.

For instance, if you say something like "the price includes a cup of
coffee or tea", nobody will think that the price includes both. It's
quite clearly an exclusive "or".

However, if you say "the job requires a degree in mathematics or
computer science", it's quite clear that it's in no way an impediment
if you have a degree in both. It's clearly an inclusive "or".

Are there any practical situations where this can cause confusion?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 23/07/2013 02:27 PM, Warp wrote:
> Orchid Win7 v1<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> I especially enjoy how "and" sometimes means "or", and "or" sometimes
>> means "and". No wonder students suck at Boolean algebra! :-D
>
> I find it more interesting that the same word "or" is used in speech
> for "inclusive or" and "exclusive or", yet it very rarely, if ever,
> causes any confusion.

Like I said, sometimes "or" clearly means "and", and vice versa, and yet 
everybody understands this.

I suspect the mind does some kind of heuristic search, utterly ignoring 
the word actually presented, and heuristically determines what 
conjunction would actually make sense.

This is the "common sense" which humans possess and machines famously do 
not. (Cue every Star Trek: The Next Generation episode involving 
Commander Data's search for humanity...)

Post a reply to this message

Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> On 23/07/2013 02:27 PM, Warp wrote:
> > Orchid Win7 v1<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
> >> I especially enjoy how "and" sometimes means "or", and "or" sometimes
> >> means "and". No wonder students suck at Boolean algebra! :-D
> >
> > I find it more interesting that the same word "or" is used in speech
> > for "inclusive or" and "exclusive or", yet it very rarely, if ever,
> > causes any confusion.

> Like I said, sometimes "or" clearly means "and", and vice versa, and yet 
> everybody understands this.

"And" is not the same as either "exclusive or" or "inclusive or".

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 13:51:04 -0400, Warp wrote:

> Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> On 23/07/2013 02:27 PM, Warp wrote:
>> > Orchid Win7 v1<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> >> I especially enjoy how "and" sometimes means "or", and "or"
>> >> sometimes means "and". No wonder students suck at Boolean algebra!
>> >> :-D
>> >
>> > I find it more interesting that the same word "or" is used in speech
>> > for "inclusive or" and "exclusive or", yet it very rarely, if ever,
>> > causes any confusion.
> 
>> Like I said, sometimes "or" clearly means "and", and vice versa, and
>> yet everybody understands this.
> 
> "And" is not the same as either "exclusive or" or "inclusive or".

Logically, it isn't.  Linguistically, though, it can be.

Jim

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"Stephen" <mcavoys_AT_aolDOT.com> wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> > On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 18:33:06 -0400, nemesis wrote:
> >
> > > Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> > >> Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> > >> > three seventy-seconds of one inch
> > >>
> > >> I think that at least *some* Americans realize how ridiculous the
> > >> imperial measurement system is. It's a petty that resistance to change
> > >> is such a huge psychological phenomenon that it's not going to change
> > >> any time soon.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>                                                           - Warp
> > >
> > > I actually had a laugh at the "three seventy" vs the usual "seventy
> > > three".  or did he mean "3 x seventy-seconds"?
> > >
> > > then again, I'm used to it from Sherlock Holmes books :)
> >
> > 3/72 is what was meant (not sure if you were not getting that, or being
> > silly)
> >
> > Jim
>
> I think that if you are not used to the system it is easy to read it as three
> times seventy seconds. Then when you realise what is meant you laugh at your
> embarrassment at getting it wrong.
> It is great how English words change their meaning depending on their context.
>
> Stephen


don't you British spell 32 as two and thirty?  at least, it is that way in
Victorian literature

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On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 19:32:33 -0400, nemesis wrote:

> don't you British spell 32 as two and thirty?  at least, it is that way
> in Victorian literature

*snortlaughs*

Jim

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On 24/07/2013 12:32 AM, nemesis wrote:
> don't you British spell 32 as two and thirty?  at least, it is that way in
> Victorian literature

I think that is just for literary effect, as in "Four and twenty 
blackbirds, baked in a pie". The language does move on, for instance we 
don't call a week a sevennight any more. But there are still parts of 
the country that use thee and thou.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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>> don't you British spell 32 as two and thirty?  at least, it is that
>> way in
>> Victorian literature
>
> I think that is just for literary effect, as in "Four and twenty
> blackbirds, baked in a pie".

No! In Old English we did say numbers that way round, but along the way 
it evolved into the current way round. Note that German (which comes 
from the same roots) still has the numbers that way round.

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On 24/07/2013 06:10 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 24/07/2013 12:32 AM, nemesis wrote:
>> don't you British spell 32 as two and thirty? at least, it is that way in
>> Victorian literature
>
> I think that is just for literary effect, as in "Four and twenty
> blackbirds, baked in a pie". The language does move on, for instance we
> don't call a week a sevennight any more. But there are still parts of
> the country that use thee and thou.

Mathematicians still refer to a polynomial "of order 2" rather than just 
saying "a second order polynomial". What can I say? Mathematics was 
invented a really, *really* long time ago...

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scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> >> don't you British spell 32 as two and thirty?  at least, it is that
> >> way in
> >> Victorian literature
> >
> > I think that is just for literary effect, as in "Four and twenty
> > blackbirds, baked in a pie".
>
> No! In Old English we did say numbers that way round, but along the way
> it evolved into the current way round. Note that German (which comes
> from the same roots) still has the numbers that way round.

No!?

It is true what you said about the way numbers were said. But and it is a big
butt. ;-)
I suspect that in Victorian times and especially in literature that style of
numbering was only used by the upper classes and country folk. Both being behind
the times. Trollope (the old snob that he was) used it s a signifier of the
aristocracy along with words like se'n night. Long gone out of fashion by that
time. Interestingly fourteen night lives on as fortnight.

Stephen

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> It is true what you said about the way numbers were said. But and it is a big
> butt. ;-)
> I suspect that in Victorian times and especially in literature that style of
> numbering was only used by the upper classes and country folk.

Yes sorry I misunderstood what you meant then - seems we agree :-)

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On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 06:10:23 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 24/07/2013 12:32 AM, nemesis wrote:
>> don't you British spell 32 as two and thirty?  at least, it is that way
>> in Victorian literature
> 
> I think that is just for literary effect, as in "Four and twenty
> blackbirds, baked in a pie". The language does move on, for instance we
> don't call a week a sevennight any more. But there are still parts of
> the country that use thee and thou.

And "fortnight". :)

Jim

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On 24/07/2013 12:53 PM, scott wrote:
> Yes sorry I misunderstood what you meant then

Now that is not an unusual event for me. ;-)

- seems we agree :-)

Good, I am all in favour of agreement. :-D

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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