On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 20:45:50 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> On 12/06/2013 10:22 AM, scott wrote:
>>> hurt their business either. It seems to me that there's nothing I can
>>> do at this point which will actually harm them, hence they don't give
>>> a damn whether I'm happy or not. There's no profit in it, and there's
>>> no penalty for failure.
>>
>> I hope you're on a no-sale-no-fee contract with them? If so then they
>> do have a lot to lose (ie their entire fee plus the costs of any
>> surveys/documents they've already purchased on your behalf). At any
>> point you could just walk away - it's in their interest to make sure
>> you don't do that.
> 
> Basically, the estate agents get paid commission for recommending a
> mortgage to me, they get paid commission for recommending an insurance
> package to me, that get paid commission for recommending a conveyancer
> to me. They have already received all of this money - regardless of
> whether I ever get me house or not. As far as I can tell, there is
> literally no profit in it for them if the sale completes. Indeed, if the
> sale falls through, they can then sell the house to somebody else, and
> get another bunch of commission. So arguably it's *better* for them if
> the sale fails...
> 
> As far as my end goes, I've paid a small up-front fee. The rest isn't
> payable until I get the keys - if that ever occurs. So it doesn't matter
> so much; I'm just tired of waiting, that's all. More than that, I
> wouldn't mind waiting if the processing takes too long, but I object to
> waiting when nothing is actually happening because nobody gives a fig...

I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in the US, your agent is a 
legal representative for you, so they have an obligation to do what is in 
your best interests - and if they don't, then there are legal options 
available.

I had to look into that a few years ago when my mum's seller's agent (not 
her agent) started causing some problems with her move.  When I mentioned 
the words "complaint" and "state real estate license commission" (or 
whatever the governing body was), they stopped playing stupid games and 
got things moving again.  It was a kinda weird situation, because the 
outfit that built the place she moved into was buying her house so they 
could do some work on it and resell it, and someone's wires got crossed 
and different people promised different things *in writing*, and then 
someone put it all together and decided they couldn't give everything 
they'd promised.  It was a real mess, but they ended up holding to their 
word after I started making noises about talking to the licensing 
authority.

Jim

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>> I hope you're on a no-sale-no-fee contract with them? If so then they do
>> have a lot to lose (ie their entire fee plus the costs of any
>> surveys/documents they've already purchased on your behalf). At any
>> point you could just walk away - it's in their interest to make sure you
>> don't do that.
>
> Basically, the estate agents get paid commission

I assume you are talking of the seller's estate agent, in which case 
they are not working for you so it's not surprising they never get back 
to you - these guys are very far from charities. Even if you were 
selling a house and had employed an estate agent they shouldn't really 
be involved at this stage, their job is solely to find a buyer not 
complete the sale (if they fear losing the buyer they might help chase 
things up on behalf of the seller).

> They have already received all of this money - regardless of
> whether I ever get me house or not. As far as I can tell, there is
> literally no profit in it for them if the sale completes.

If it doesn't complete they will not get their fee from the seller 
(which is likely orders of magnitude bigger than any commission payments 
for recommendations to potential buyers) and will have to repeat the 
whole process of finding a buyer. They'd rather spend the time and 
effort doing this process on a different property and get another £x000 
than have to repeat it on your one.

> As far as my end goes, I've paid a small up-front fee.

To your solicitor? Yes that's normal - but what happens if the sale 
doesn't complete, do you get that back?

> so much; I'm just tired of waiting, that's all. More than that, I
> wouldn't mind waiting if the processing takes too long, but I object to
> waiting when nothing is actually happening because nobody gives a fig...

Your solicitor is the only one working for you, all your contact should 
be with them at this stage, they will in turn contact whoever is needed 
to complete the sale (the seller's solicitor, government agencies, 
banks, surveyors etc). They should be able to tell you exactly what is 
going on and chase things up for you - it's quite normal to be calling 
them even every day at this stage. Have you discussed a target date yet 
for completion? If not tell them you want to complete on a certain date 
(eg 1st July), they will inform that to the seller and see what reaction 
you get. It helps to be working towards a target date.

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>> Nobody ever said that buying a house is a quick or easy process. Or
>> cheap...
>
> That's certainly true.  Though right now in our neighborhood, the average
> sale time for a house is about 17 days (we're doing some work on our
> place to get ready to sell it).

Is that the time from when it is placed on the market to finding a 
buyer? The problem in the UK is that even once you find a buyer (which, 
as with anything, can range from hours to years depending on the price 
you are happy to accept) the process after that until you legally own 
the house can take forever.

A standard simple sale with no chain or anything complicated to look up 
or check about the house could probably be done in a minimum of 4-6 
weeks (probably even less if you don't need to borrow from the bank), 
that's about how long it took when I bought my first house. I was lucky 
because obviously I had no house to sell at the same time and the 
sellers already owned another place they were moving into.

However usually many other things complicate and slow down this process. 
Most people need to borrow money from a bank to fund the purchase, and 
banks will not give out the money until they are satisfied the house is 
not going to fall down, sink into the ground, get blown away, flooded, 
become radioactive or have a motorway built through it in the next 20 
years. Hence there is a mountain of paperwork that needs to be collected 
regarding the house before the bank will release the money and the deal 
can be closed. This often involves government agencies which are 
typically slow to respond.

Now bear in mind that often you need to sell a place to fund the 
purchase of your new place, the people selling the house you are about 
to buy are also trying to buy another house, so as you can imagine you 
can easily end up in a chain of 5 or 10 people who are all looking to 
sell and buy at the same time. Chances are there *will* be someone in 
the chain that messes things up because they are looking to buy an 18th 
century house in the middle of a field that is about to collapse, has no 
drainage and the previous owners have died and lost all the paperwork 
etc. Or often people simply change their mind about moving house and 
then someone in the chain needs to find a new buyer which can add weeks 
or months onto the process. Then other people simply give up because 
it's taking too long and find another property. People even will try and 
screw their buyers right near the end by saying "actually we want £10k 
more now for our house else we're pulling out". All sorts of s#!t goes on.

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Le 2013-06-13 03:55, scott a écrit :
>>> Nobody ever said that buying a house is a quick or easy process. Or
>>> cheap...
>>
>> That's certainly true.  Though right now in our neighborhood, the average
>> sale time for a house is about 17 days (we're doing some work on our
>> place to get ready to sell it).
>
> Is that the time from when it is placed on the market to finding a
> buyer? The problem in the UK is that even once you find a buyer (which,
> as with anything, can range from hours to years depending on the price
> you are happy to accept) the process after that until you legally own
> the house can take forever.
>
> A standard simple sale with no chain or anything complicated to look up
> or check about the house could probably be done in a minimum of 4-6
> weeks (probably even less if you don't need to borrow from the bank),
> that's about how long it took when I bought my first house. I was lucky
> because obviously I had no house to sell at the same time and the
> sellers already owned another place they were moving into.
>
> However usually many other things complicate and slow down this process.
> Most people need to borrow money from a bank to fund the purchase, and
> banks will not give out the money until they are satisfied the house is
> not going to fall down, sink into the ground, get blown away, flooded,
> become radioactive or have a motorway built through it in the next 20
> years. Hence there is a mountain of paperwork that needs to be collected
> regarding the house before the bank will release the money and the deal
> can be closed. This often involves government agencies which are
> typically slow to respond.
>

In my area, most seller agents will ask that the seller get all the 
paperwork for the land in order ahead of time, since they know it's a de 
facto requirement for the sale to take place (you can get the sale 
annuled if you realize afterwards that the city was about to dezone your 
land to make an interstate offramp on it).  Likewise, most buyer's agent 
will ask that their clients get "preapproved" by their bank for a 
certain amount, mostly so that they don't waste their time looking for 
houses only to see the prospective buyer get rejected by the bank at the 
last minute.

The only things that need to happen between the first handshake and the 
key exchange (sorry for sounding like an IETF RFC) are a building 
inspection (3-5 days), finalising the preapproved mortgage at the bank 
(2-3 days) and going in front of a notary to sign the legal papers.

Of course, if the land deed is ancient (or missing) and the notary has 
to dig through records in a lavatory in the city hall basement, at the 
bottom of a broken staircase, or the building inspector finds major 
issues with the house, or the bank thinks you should get rid of some of 
your exisiting liabilities before getting a new mortgage, or one of the 
parties has other conditions attached (ex: buyer needs to sell his 
exisisting property, seller's new house needs to be finished, etc...) 
this can take much longer.

> Now bear in mind that often you need to sell a place to fund the
> purchase of your new place, the people selling the house you are about
> to buy are also trying to buy another house, so as you can imagine you
> can easily end up in a chain of 5 or 10 people who are all looking to
> sell and buy at the same time. Chances are there *will* be someone in
> the chain that messes things up because they are looking to buy an 18th
> century house in the middle of a field that is about to collapse, has no
> drainage and the previous owners have died and lost all the paperwork
> etc. Or often people simply change their mind about moving house and
> then someone in the chain needs to find a new buyer which can add weeks
> or months onto the process. Then other people simply give up because
> it's taking too long and find another property. People even will try and
> screw their buyers right near the end by saying "actually we want £10k
> more now for our house else we're pulling out". All sorts of s#!t goes on.
>

Luckily, in my province, by default rent leases last for 12 months and 
go from July 1st to June 30th of the following year, unless otherwise 
specified, so July 1st is traditionnally "moving day"*.  Even if you are 
moving from a house that you own to another house that you buy, someone, 
somewhere in that chain is an old person moving into an appartment, or a 
young couple moving out of an appartment.  And it's a national holiday, 
so you know your brother-in-law won't be at work, so all you need to do 
is bribe him with beer and pizza.

*It was featured on a British tv series (on ITV, I think) on weird local 
customs from around the world.
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> In my area, most seller agents will ask that the seller get all the
> paperwork for the land in order ahead of time, since they know it's a de
> facto requirement for the sale to take place (you can get the sale
> annuled if you realize afterwards that the city was about to dezone your
> land to make an interstate offramp on it).  Likewise, most buyer's agent
> will ask that their clients get "preapproved" by their bank for a
> certain amount, mostly so that they don't waste their time looking for
> houses only to see the prospective buyer get rejected by the bank at the
> last minute.

Here in the UK the pre-approval from the bank is about the only thing 
done before the initial handshake. Most people don't even have a 
solicitor sorted until after a price has been agreed.

> The only things that need to happen between the first handshake and the
> key exchange (sorry for sounding like an IETF RFC) are a building
> inspection (3-5 days), finalising the preapproved mortgage at the bank
> (2-3 days) and going in front of a notary to sign the legal papers.

Oh if only it were that easy here :-) In theory all that needs to happen 
in addition to what you mention is a series of searches on the property 
(drainage/flood, environment etc), a few documents regarding exactly 
what is and is not included in the sale and setting up insurance. In 
practise even modern houses often have problems, things like services 
being rerouted by house builders and not properly documented, 
building/electrical work having been recently done without the proper 
certificates etc.

> parties has other conditions attached (ex: buyer needs to sell his
> exisisting property, seller's new house needs to be finished, etc...)
> this can take much longer.

In the UK most people need to sell and buy at the same time (literally, 
normally noon on the day of the move). If you're selling without needing 
to buy another house then you are in a very good position and it's worth 
a few thousand on the asking price.

> Luckily, in my province, by default rent leases last for 12 months and
> go from July 1st to June 30th of the following year, unless otherwise
> specified, so July 1st is traditionnally "moving day"*.  Even if you are
> moving from a house that you own to another house that you buy, someone,
> somewhere in that chain is an old person moving into an appartment, or a
> young couple moving out of an appartment.

Ouch - I assume you have a massive rush to get ready for a move by July 
1st then, if you miss it for whatever technicality then bad luck, you 
have to wait 12 months :-) Being involved with house purchases (estate 
agents, solicitors, removal companies) must be quite a seasonal business 
there...

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On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:55:46 +0100, scott wrote:

>>> Nobody ever said that buying a house is a quick or easy process. Or
>>> cheap...
>>
>> That's certainly true.  Though right now in our neighborhood, the
>> average sale time for a house is about 17 days (we're doing some work
>> on our place to get ready to sell it).
> 
> Is that the time from when it is placed on the market to finding a
> buyer? 

That's from placed on market to sale closed, IIRC.  In the US, once you 
have an offer accepted, things tend to move pretty quickly in my 
experience.

Jim

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>> Basically, the estate agents get paid commission
>
> I assume you are talking of the seller's estate agent

I was talking about my agent. They got paid all sorts of money for 
signing me up to things; I think the actual house sale is more or less 
moot from their point of view.

> Even if you were
> selling a house and had employed an estate agent they shouldn't really
> be involved at this stage, their job is solely to find a buyer not
> complete the sale

Well, they keep promising me that they're chasing the sale... And yet, 
there's little to no evidence of them actually doing anything.

>> As far as my end goes, I've paid a small up-front fee.
>
> To your solicitor? Yes that's normal - but what happens if the sale
> doesn't complete, do you get that back?

Apparently the small fee I've paid is non-refundable. I only have to pay 
the rest if I actually get the house.

> Your solicitor is the only one working for you, all your contact should
> be with them at this stage, they will in turn contact whoever is needed
> to complete the sale (the seller's solicitor, government agencies,
> banks, surveyors etc).

Every time I call them, I just get "We're waiting for the other side. We 
have no idea what's taking them so long." Only after I hassled my estate 
agent did it come to light that forms have gone missing in the mail. 
(Again, assuming you actually believe this story is true...)

> They should be able to tell you exactly what is
> going on and chase things up for you - it's quite normal to be calling
> them even every day at this stage.

I haven't got *time* to babysit them every tiny step of the way. I'm 
paying *them* to sort this stuff out! I'm supposed to be at work, working.

> Have you discussed a target date yet for completion?

Why bother? Clearly whatever date I come up with will be summarily 
ignored. Nobody has any interest in pushing this forwards; I am *the 
only* person who actually wants this transaction completed. The lawyers 
don't care; they get more money the longer it takes. The estate agents 
don't care; they already got their money. And the seller doesn't even 
have a place to go yet, so he doesn't care. I, on the other hand, am 
desperate to get away from my mother ASAP...

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On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 18:38:47 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> I haven't got *time* to babysit them every tiny step of the way. I'm
> paying *them* to sort this stuff out! I'm supposed to be at work,
> working.

Call them every couple of days and ask for an update, and ask them when 
they expect the next step to be taken.

If there's a governing body (and I'd be surprised if there wasn't), talk 
to them as well.  If you have incompetent representation, then that needs 
to be reported and you need a new agent.  Being a real estate agent is 
operating as a sort of lawyer (at least in the US) and they are legal 
representation for you, and if they're not putting your interests first, 
they're probably violating their oath.

Jim

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> I was talking about my agent. They got paid all sorts of money for
> signing me up to things; I think the actual house sale is more or less
> moot from their point of view.

Really? They normally charge about 1% of the value of the property, I 
can't imagine their commission on selling you insurance, solicitor etc 
is anywhere near that. Given your house insurance is probably something 
like £150, their commission can surely only be £10 or something. Maybe a 
bit more for the solictor, but we're still probably talking way under £100.

> Every time I call them, I just get "We're waiting for the other side. We
> have no idea what's taking them so long."

"Please can you find out what's taking them so long. I'll call back in 
the morning."

> Only after I hassled my estate
> agent did it come to light that forms have gone missing in the mail.
> (Again, assuming you actually believe this story is true...)

I would treat anything you hear from an estate agent, especially when 
they're not even working for you, with a huge mountain of salt.

> I haven't got *time* to babysit them every tiny step of the way. I'm
> paying *them* to sort this stuff out! I'm supposed to be at work, working.

Find a better solicitor then - I assume you asked about and got 
recommendations for the one you are using ... oh wait hang on :-)

> And the seller doesn't even
> have a place to go yet,

In this situation it's completely normal to only allow the seller a few 
weeks to find somewhere before you retract your offer. Tell your 
solicitor they've got 3 weeks to have an offer accepted on something 
before you're done with this. Once your solicitor senses a risk of 
losing their fee they will work a little harder :-)

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Le 2013-06-13 11:30, scott a écrit :
>> In my area, most seller agents will ask that the seller get all the
>> paperwork for the land in order ahead of time, since they know it's a de
>> facto requirement for the sale to take place (you can get the sale
>> annuled if you realize afterwards that the city was about to dezone your
>> land to make an interstate offramp on it).  Likewise, most buyer's agent
>> will ask that their clients get "preapproved" by their bank for a
>> certain amount, mostly so that they don't waste their time looking for
>> houses only to see the prospective buyer get rejected by the bank at the
>> last minute.
>
> Here in the UK the pre-approval from the bank is about the only thing
> done before the initial handshake. Most people don't even have a
> solicitor sorted until after a price has been agreed.
>
>> The only things that need to happen between the first handshake and the
>> key exchange (sorry for sounding like an IETF RFC) are a building
>> inspection (3-5 days), finalising the preapproved mortgage at the bank
>> (2-3 days) and going in front of a notary to sign the legal papers.
>
> Oh if only it were that easy here :-) In theory all that needs to happen
> in addition to what you mention is a series of searches on the property
> (drainage/flood, environment etc), a few documents regarding exactly
> what is and is not included in the sale and setting up insurance. In
> practise even modern houses often have problems, things like services
> being rerouted by house builders and not properly documented,
> building/electrical work having been recently done without the proper
> certificates etc.
>

Of course, if the building inspection goes south, it can take more than 
3-5 days.

Also, in most of my provinces the land was government-owned forests 
until the first half of the 20th century, so the paperwork is not that 
complicated, unlike in Britain where you might have to go literally 1000 
years back to find the right owners, and that is if the record haven't 
burned or flooded.

This being said, my sister recently bought a lot that was owned by my 
grandmother and the official documents said that the lot was bounded on 
the north-east corner by a big pine tree (gone), on the north-west 
corner by a "big" rock (which was probably removed 30-40 years ago when 
they widened the road), etc...  So she had lots of fun getting surveyors 
find the exact corners of her property.

>> parties has other conditions attached (ex: buyer needs to sell his
>> exisisting property, seller's new house needs to be finished, etc...)
>> this can take much longer.
>
> In the UK most people need to sell and buy at the same time (literally,
> normally noon on the day of the move). If you're selling without needing
> to buy another house then you are in a very good position and it's worth
> a few thousand on the asking price.
>
>> Luckily, in my province, by default rent leases last for 12 months and
>> go from July 1st to June 30th of the following year, unless otherwise
>> specified, so July 1st is traditionnally "moving day"*.  Even if you are
>> moving from a house that you own to another house that you buy, someone,
>> somewhere in that chain is an old person moving into an appartment, or a
>> young couple moving out of an appartment.
>
> Ouch - I assume you have a massive rush to get ready for a move by July
> 1st then, if you miss it for whatever technicality then bad luck, you
> have to wait 12 months :-) Being involved with house purchases (estate
> agents, solicitors, removal companies) must be quite a seasonal business
> there...
>

Actually, if you can pick another day, you should.  Movers are a lot 
cheaper.

You can also get leases that go for longer or shorter periods, but by 
default they last for 1 year.  And you do end up with nast scenarios of 
people stranded on the sidewalk with all their belongings because they 
had to leave their old place to let the new people in, but their new 
place is not ready yet, or the truck maver made it, etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_Day_%28Quebec%29

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