On 11/8/2012 12:23 AM, scott wrote:
>> There is, in fact, a psychological phenomenon behind all this. I wrote an
>> article about that very subject here:
>>
>> http://grindedgear.blogspot.fi/2012/10/people-are-really-bad-at-grasping.html
>>
>
> Example:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy
This isn't just about "probabilities" in this case though, its more like 
"Crank thinking". I.e., if it scares me, then if something seems to 
prove that its true, then its true, but if something indicates its not 
true, its actually conspiracy to hide that it is true."

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> Uh... You would be rather surprised.. lol
>
> But, seriously, most people are going to see the $, not look at how many
> hours they actually are likely to get. Those can vary, they depend on
> seniority, and its not always clear how screwed you just made yourself,
> unless you are really paying attention.

In pretty much every step of life people are out to take advantage of 
you if you can't do basic maths or don't pay attention (employers, 
banks, shops, car salesmen, etc.). I don't think it's unique to dodgy 
employers trying to screw over their staff.

A good example is getting a home-loan here in the UK. Most banks will 
offer a number of different products with different combinations of 
interest rates and initial fees. If you can't do the calculation to 
figure out which is the cheapest then you're likely going to be paying 
more than someone who can, especially as the bank is obviously going to 
promote the one that makes them the most money.

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Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> This isn't just about "probabilities" in this case though, its more like 
> "Crank thinking". I.e., if it scares me, then if something seems to 
> prove that its true, then its true, but if something indicates its not 
> true, its actually conspiracy to hide that it is true."

There's indeed an enormous amount of bias among people who believe in
conspiracy theories and such.

For example, no amount of research will convince them, no matter who makes
the research. There are no "unbiased independent parties". They are all in
the conspiracy (somehow.)

And then if there's a research that seemingly supports the conspiracy, it
will immediately be credible and much quoted. It doesn't matter if it has
been rejected by all credible science publications because of not passing
even the most basic of peer reviewing. The publications are rejecting the
research because they are in the conspiracy! (Naturally it cannot be because
the research is bogus. That's just impossible!)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 11/9/2012 12:18 AM, scott wrote:
>> Uh... You would be rather surprised.. lol
>>
>> But, seriously, most people are going to see the $, not look at how many
>> hours they actually are likely to get. Those can vary, they depend on
>> seniority, and its not always clear how screwed you just made yourself,
>> unless you are really paying attention.
>
> In pretty much every step of life people are out to take advantage of
> you if you can't do basic maths or don't pay attention (employers,
> banks, shops, car salesmen, etc.). I don't think it's unique to dodgy
> employers trying to screw over their staff.
>
> A good example is getting a home-loan here in the UK. Most banks will
> offer a number of different products with different combinations of
> interest rates and initial fees. If you can't do the calculation to
> figure out which is the cheapest then you're likely going to be paying
> more than someone who can, especially as the bank is obviously going to
> promote the one that makes them the most money.
True enough, but I would argue that this is, sadly, becoming an all too 
common tactic for businesses in the US. Another store, with a weaker 
union, had it worse, and everyone, including the people considered 
"specialists" there had their own pay reduced to minimum wage.

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>> On 06/11/2012 01:32 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> It's a sad, sad state of affairs.
>>
>> I'm sorry - *which* century do you live in? Because it sounds like the
>> Dark Ages...
>
> I live in the 21st century, but some of our legislators are in the dark
> ages, certainly.

It must make you feel really sad when you contemplate what the rest of 
the world thinks about your country...

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On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:24:01 +0000, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> I live in the 21st century, but some of our legislators are in the dark
>> ages, certainly.
> 
> It must make you feel really sad when you contemplate what the rest of
> the world thinks about your country...

Not really, when I see some of what goes on in yours. ;)

(In all seriousness, there certainly are times where I facepalm over what 
our government does)

Jim

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On 11/9/2012 11:24 AM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>> On 06/11/2012 01:32 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> It's a sad, sad state of affairs.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry - *which* century do you live in? Because it sounds like the
>>> Dark Ages...
>>
>> I live in the 21st century, but some of our legislators are in the dark
>> ages, certainly.
>
> It must make you feel really sad when you contemplate what the rest of
> the world thinks about your country...
People like me and Jim, yes, but their "supporters" have been actually 
caught, as of Obama's reelection, stating that they are considering 
leaving the horrible, socialist, etc. US, to move back to Europe.

They think:

1. We are weak, if not feared vs. the reality that scaring some of them 
is what makes them want to kill us.

2. Europe is, depending on what they are talking about, a golden 
paradise, or a worse disaster than the US. Its never the less, somehow, 
less corrupted than the US is.

3. Russia is still the biggest threat we have (one reason why one of the 
newest movie to come out is going to be a remake of Red Dawn, a cold war 
flick, where small town heroes hold off Russian troops, who got help 
from Mexico to invade the US, in the back end of no place, until the 
real troops finally took notice of all the damn parashoots that got 
dropped all over the place, and wondered, "I wonder why all of them had 
Russian flag on them?"

I could go on, but.. basically, we are talking about weapon's grade 
ignorance and stupidity here.

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Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> People like me and Jim, yes, but their "supporters" have been actually 
> caught, as of Obama's reelection, stating that they are considering 
> leaving the horrible, socialist, etc. US, to move back to Europe.

It sounds like those people who, when the new healthcare system (kind of)
was ratified, threatened to move to Canada.

So US's healthcare system was made slightly closer to that of Canada, and
because that was such a horrible thing, they threaten to move to... Canada.
Makes perfect sense.

Btw, there seems to be an irrational fear of "socialism" in the US. Do they
even understand what "socialism" means? Or is it to them just something
vague and scary, exactly like "witchcraft" or "satanism"? No need to even
know what exactly it is; it's enough to know that it's something "scary".

(I understand that there's a minority in the US who would actually welcome
a more "socialist" form of government, if it means more equality and a
significantly better healthcare system where you don't have to die or lose
fingers just because you are not rich enough.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 11/9/2012 10:43 PM, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> People like me and Jim, yes, but their "supporters" have been actually
>> caught, as of Obama's reelection, stating that they are considering
>> leaving the horrible, socialist, etc. US, to move back to Europe.
>
> It sounds like those people who, when the new healthcare system (kind of)
> was ratified, threatened to move to Canada.
>
> So US's healthcare system was made slightly closer to that of Canada, and
> because that was such a horrible thing, they threaten to move to... Canada.
> Makes perfect sense.
>
> Btw, there seems to be an irrational fear of "socialism" in the US. Do they
> even understand what "socialism" means? Or is it to them just something
> vague and scary, exactly like "witchcraft" or "satanism"? No need to even
> know what exactly it is; it's enough to know that it's something "scary".
>
Generally, when asked what they think it is, or have things that are 
described to them, they don't have a clue. I seriously think they just 
imagine it means we will elect Stalin, or some Chinese guy to office, 
and start plotting to kill James Bond with a giant laser, or something...

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Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Generally, when asked what they think it is, or have things that are 
> described to them, they don't have a clue. I seriously think they just 
> imagine it means we will elect Stalin, or some Chinese guy to office, 
> and start plotting to kill James Bond with a giant laser, or something...

It seem that those Americans seem to think that only the extremes are
possible: Either Chinese-style totalitarian communism/socialism, or
completely unrestricted capitalism. There's no middle ground.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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