On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 04:57:21 -0400, Warp wrote:

> Le_Forgeron <jgr### [at] freefr> wrote:
>> You were expected to work double time for free. You are a picky a*****e
>> to have ask a salary.
> 
> Technically speaking it's illegal here (and I'm sure in most civilized
> countries) to ask an employee to work extra hours without pay, and it's
> also quite illegal to fire them just because they refuse. Yet it happens
> all the time here.

Not in the US.  Salaried employees are paid for the job, regardless of 
the hours it takes to get it done.  Some employers take advantage of 
this, and the so-called "at will" employment laws in many US states mean 
that the employer can fire an employee at any time for cause - or even no 
reason at all.

The laws are very heavily in favor of the employers, with a few notable 
exceptions (it's damned near impossible to get a tenured teacher fired 
for incompetence, for example).

Jim

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On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 13:57:24 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> I got my current job because daddy put in a good word with the bosses,
> and they were absolutely desperate. If it weren't for that, I'd
> presumably have been unemployed for the last ten years...

No, chances are you would have found something.  You've got skills, and 
eventually someone would have taken a chance on them.

There's no way to know for certain what would've happened.

Jim

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On 5-8-2012 10:57, Warp wrote:
> Le_Forgeron <jgr### [at] freefr> wrote:
>> You were expected to work double time for free. You are a picky a*****e
>> to have ask a salary.
>
> Technically speaking it's illegal here (and I'm sure in most civilized
> countries) to ask an employee to work extra hours without pay, and it's
> also quite illegal to fire them just because they refuse. Yet it happens
> all the time here.
>
> Finnish law protects employees from being fired at a whim, without a good
> reason (monetary problems or employee misconduct are good reasons; the
> refusal of an employee to work extra hours for free certainly isn't). Even
> when the employer does have a good reason to fire the employee, the
> employer must give a three-month notice (except in special circumstances).
>
> Employers get around this tiny problem with a trick: Rather than employ
> people indefinitely, they employ them a few months at a time, always
> renovating the employment contract at the end of the previous one. This
> way they can "soft-fire" someone by simply not renovating the contract.
> This is *technically* legal (because they are not firing anybody), yet
> achieves practically the same effect as firing someone at a whim.

Here you can not do that. Your third consecutive contract can not be a 
temporary contract, nor can you have someone on temporary contracts for 
3 years in a row (or 5, details change sometimes and I am not following 
this closely, though I should). Moreover you can not hire somebody via 
an agency and then the same person consecutively via another to 
circumvent these rules. It is the hiring party that counts, not the agency.
However, these rules can not explain why I am working for more than 23 
years now in the same hospital, doing the same work, on a string of 
temporary contracts.


-- 
Women are the canaries of science. When they are underrepresented
it is a strong indication that non-scientific factors play a role
and the concentration of incorruptible scientists is also too low

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On 05/08/2012 6:44 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 07:14:44 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> Lucky you.
>
> Indeed, I recognise that I'm pretty lucky in that respect.
>

Well I've worked for multi-national oil companies. So you could say what 
principles?

What a change from when I was in my twenties. A dope smoking, hair down 
to my arse, hippy type.

> I had a chat with a software developer in Bangalore several years ago -
> he hadn't compromised on principles, but he really didn't like developing
> software.  But it was a way for him to afford to feed and clothe his
> family.
>

Most people I meet don't like working. They do it like your friend, to 
put bread on the table.


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 05/08/2012 6:47 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 04:57:21 -0400, Warp wrote:
>
>> Le_Forgeron <jgr### [at] freefr> wrote:
>>> You were expected to work double time for free. You are a picky a*****e
>>> to have ask a salary.
>>
>> Technically speaking it's illegal here (and I'm sure in most civilized
>> countries) to ask an employee to work extra hours without pay, and it's
>> also quite illegal to fire them just because they refuse. Yet it happens
>> all the time here.
>
> Not in the US.  Salaried employees...

Now there's the rub.

Hourly paid workers work their hours. Salaried staff work untill the job 
is done.
I have worked several ghosters (two shifts of 12 hours). Twice when the 
clocks went back, making a twenty five hour day. The first time I was a 
contractor and got paid for it. The second time, by the grace of my 
supervisor got eight hours off. That still did not stop them from making 
me redundant when it suited them. LOL



-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 05/08/2012 06:49 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 13:57:24 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>
>> I got my current job because daddy put in a good word with the bosses,
>> and they were absolutely desperate. If it weren't for that, I'd
>> presumably have been unemployed for the last ten years...
>
> No, chances are you would have found something.  You've got skills, and
> eventually someone would have taken a chance on them.

Having skills is a vastly different thing than /proving/ you have 
skills. Therein lies the problem.

> There's no way to know for certain what would've happened.

Well, yes, that's ultimately true of everything in life.

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On 05/08/2012 06:47 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

> The laws are very heavily in favor of the employers

I've noticed that.

My employer decided to shut two sites. The American one? 3pm local time, 
they say to everybody "pack up your stuff". And that's IT. The place is 
shut. They'll pay some contractor to come round and flog off any company 
assets which still have value, but as far as the staff are concerned, 
they turn up to work on Tuesday, and then suddenly they were unemployed.

In the UK, you can't do that. We have these pesky employee protection 
laws. Which means you can't just /shut/ the site, you have to pretend to 
think about it for 30 days. And /then/ you can just shut it.

(Unfortunately, the law doesn't force the employer to /really/ think 
about it. They only have to /pretend/ to reconsider...)

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On 8/5/2012 1:57, Warp wrote:
> This is *technically* legal

The best kind of legal!


Seriously, I really have to wonder what legislators think they're 
accomplishing by making laws that say "you're not allowed to do X, unless 
the employee signs a contract waiving that right."

We had a law go into effect that said, basically, that even if when you left 
the company you signed a form saying you wouldn't sue the company, you could 
still sue the company over something they did illegally while firing you if 
you didn't know they'd done it. (E.g., they fire you for being the wrong 
skin color, which is illegal. To get your bonus, you agree not to sue. Then 
one of your coworkers finds the memo telling your boss to fire you because 
of your skin color. Now you can sue.)

Of course, instantly, all companies added clauses that said you waive your 
right to sue over things you didn't know about when you got fired.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
   "Don't panic. There's beans and filters
    in the cabinet."

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On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 19:41:14 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 05/08/2012 6:44 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 07:14:44 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> Lucky you.
>>
>> Indeed, I recognise that I'm pretty lucky in that respect.
>>
>>
> Well I've worked for multi-national oil companies. So you could say what
> principles?
> 
> What a change from when I was in my twenties. A dope smoking, hair down
> to my arse, hippy type.

I think people's principles evolve and change over time.

>> I had a chat with a software developer in Bangalore several years ago -
>> he hadn't compromised on principles, but he really didn't like
>> developing software.  But it was a way for him to afford to feed and
>> clothe his family.
>>
>>
> Most people I meet don't like working. They do it like your friend, to
> put bread on the table.

I think overall it's about 50/50 for me - in terms of the people I meet.

It's a very fortunate thing indeed to take something you love doing and 
to be able to make a career out of it.

Jim

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On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 19:47:12 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 05/08/2012 6:47 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Aug 2012 04:57:21 -0400, Warp wrote:
>>
>>> Le_Forgeron <jgr### [at] freefr> wrote:
>>>> You were expected to work double time for free. You are a picky
>>>> a*****e to have ask a salary.
>>>
>>> Technically speaking it's illegal here (and I'm sure in most civilized
>>> countries) to ask an employee to work extra hours without pay, and
>>> it's also quite illegal to fire them just because they refuse. Yet it
>>> happens all the time here.
>>
>> Not in the US.  Salaried employees...
> 
> Now there's the rub.
> 
> Hourly paid workers work their hours. Salaried staff work untill the job
> is done.

Yep.  I worked one job where management "threatened" to move IT staff to 
salaried from hourly.  That was the job I was forced to resign from that 
I've mentioned.

> I have worked several ghosters (two shifts of 12 hours). Twice when the
> clocks went back, making a twenty five hour day. The first time I was a
> contractor and got paid for it. The second time, by the grace of my
> supervisor got eight hours off. That still did not stop them from making
> me redundant when it suited them. LOL

Hate when that happens.

Jim

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